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Offline IHMSA80x80

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« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2004, 03:55:28 PM »
Quote from: akihmsa

   
 
also if the shoot offs are all that matters at the Big matches then why not just do away with the regular portion and go straight to the shootoffs.  (Actually someone proposed this for UAS last year !)    
 
Quote from: Gun Zorro

 
The shootoffs are not all that matters at the matches, regardless of size. The friendships and sharing of a common interest are far more important. The shootoffs merely show who was best (or luckiest) at that time, in those conditions. I'm going to TUSCO again this year, and I've practiced hard for it, because I want to do well for my own benefit. Even if I tank all my entries and finish at the bottom of every class, it will still be the greatest thing to just have been there and I will have enjoyed it just as much. The sad thing is that some of my long-time, long-distance friends will not be there this year, and it is their company I will miss most.

Offline K2

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« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2004, 08:43:45 AM »
You are right on point 80x80 :D

All the concern over scores and such is very much secondary to associating with people that enjoy shooting.  That is the main function of an Association in the first place!  

Whether a load shoots to 1 1/4" or 3/4" is a big yawner for most folks.  Either is good enough to get the job done if the shooter can.  

Enjoy the season, I am!  
Quote from: IHMSA80x80
Quote from: akihmsa

   
 
also if the shoot offs are all that matters at the Big matches then why not just do away with the regular portion and go straight to the shootoffs.  (Actually someone proposed this for UAS last year !)    
 
Quote from: Gun Zorro

 
The shootoffs are not all that matters at the matches, regardless of size. The friendships and sharing of a common interest are far more important. The shootoffs merely show who was best (or luckiest) at that time, in those conditions. I'm going to TUSCO again this year, and I've practiced hard for it, because I want to do well for my own benefit. Even if I tank all my entries and finish at the bottom of every class, it will still be the greatest thing to just have been there and I will have enjoyed it just as much. The sad thing is that some of my long-time, long-distance friends will not be there this year, and it is their company I will miss most.

Offline chunter

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« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2004, 11:25:29 AM »
Well all you have made up my mind for me.  No handgun silhouette will be introduced to our range.  Congratulations on everyone's articulate unbiased opinions that have helped me to understand that we want nothing to do with this division of silhouette. Definitely no new types of silhouette or the current one will ever fix the problems that have been introduced in this thread.  Certainly we enjoy silhouette at our range,  but I do believe we will keep it to NRA sb silhouette and in the future NRA hp silhouette.  While are group has its problems, I haven't noticed anybody really acting like three yr olds.

Good luck pistol shooters,  you are going to need it.

Offline braud357

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« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2004, 02:36:02 PM »
Chunter - from the content and "tone" of your message  - you would fit right in with some of these people. You have condemned the sport of handgun silhouette when you obviously don't know anything about it. I have been shooting IHMSA silhouette since 1980, and am proud to say that almost everyone that I have encountered at a IHMSA match has been pleasant and helpful. I cannot say that about the NRA matches that I have attended - where elitism and snobbery rule. But, hey - you are entitled to your opinion !

Offline chunter

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« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2004, 03:14:08 PM »
Quote
Chunter - from the content and "tone" of your message - you would fit right in with some of these people. You have condemned the sport of handgun silhouette when you obviously don't know anything about it. I have been shooting IHMSA silhouette since 1980, and am proud to say that almost everyone that I have encountered at a IHMSA match has been pleasant and helpful. I cannot say that about the NRA matches that I have attended - where elitism and snobbery rule. But, hey - you are entitled to your opinion !


Thank you braud357,  I was feeling kind of bad about what I wrote due to the terrible attitudes in this thread, however, now I don't.   I actually have done a lot of research on the IMHSA.  We have a great range and lots of interested silhouette shooters, which I thought we be easily interested in the pistol side of silhouette. However, after reading through all the threads on this forum I am very concerned with the attitudes that are housed in these competitions.  Now I know that I don't want anything to do with an organization that has people in it like this. I know that the NRA has its problems, I guess I have never seen the "elitism and snobbery." However, I am sure seeing it here.  Thanks for the reply, it really helps your sport.

Good luck

Offline B_Koes

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« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2004, 03:21:43 PM »
Sheesh, this is exactly the kind of stuff that we don't need.  Chunter, I do understand your perception of this thread (and others on this board and elsewhere regarding IHMSA).  However braud357 is right...don't judge the entire group by this.  You are basically only seeing the opinions of a handfull of the most vocal IHMSA members which may or may not represent the general membership.  What is being aired here roughly equates to a family squabble and probably shouldn't be done in a public manner as to color the perception of the organization as a whole.  Almost across the board you can go to an IHMSA member and ask them about their shooting experience and I would be willing to wager that almost every one would say that they experience great commaraderie at the matches.  That, along with the clanking of steel, is what keeps us coming back for more.

I haven't read this thread for quite a while for the reason you mentioned, but I checked in tonight for reasons I don't know.  It is not my mission to persuade you to implement handgun silhouette at your range.  I certainly won't lose any sleep over it.  However, it is a sad disservice that you do to the rest of us when you stereotype all handgun shooters by the voice of a few.

Offline braud357

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« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2004, 04:28:21 PM »
chunter - did you read what I said ? (obviously not). I was not talking down to you - only questioning your condemnation of Handgun Silhouette shooters - and, of you making your opinions solely on what has been written here.

Offline dawg_doc

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« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2004, 05:41:33 AM »
Chunter,
Instead of basing your opinions on the collective wisdom of the internet, get ahold of some of your local shooters.  I see you're from Utah.  Utah is home to some fine IHMSA shooters and some extremely nice folks.  The IHMSA state director and your regional director are great people.  They would love to help, I'm sure.  Contacts are available at the IHMSA webpage.


Quote from: chunter
Well all you have made up my mind for me.  No handgun silhouette will be introduced to our range.  Congratulations on everyone's articulate unbiased opinions that have helped me to understand that we want nothing to do with this division of silhouette. Definitely no new types of silhouette or the current one will ever fix the problems that have been introduced in this thread.  Certainly we enjoy silhouette at our range,  but I do believe we will keep it to NRA sb silhouette and in the future NRA hp silhouette.  While are group has its problems, I haven't noticed anybody really acting like three yr olds.

Good luck pistol shooters,  you are going to need it.

Offline 54914

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« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2004, 06:09:34 AM »
Chunter,
     You wrote, "Now I know that I don't want anything to do with an organization that has people in it like this."

     I respectfully disagree.  I, personally, would not want to be associated with an organization that did not have people like this.  By that, I mean an organization that did not tolerate dissent or argument.  Perhaps the perfect organization would have a Board of Directors who would be willing to, purely in the interest of the other members and the sport as a whole, suspend or revoke the membership of an individual for political reasons.  We have been there, and I was there when a new Board publicly apologized to this individual, who is now a State Director.

     Imagine the organization where you have to get on the internet and gather individual members from all over this continent in order to have a discussion of ideas.  The IHMSA, nor its politics, does not impact my local matches, in a negative way.  In my state, 80% of the active shooters will not travel a few (4 1/4 hours at most) to attend one of the largest silhouette championships in the nation, while others came in from Kentucky, Mississippi, and Nebraska.  Nationwide, 95% of the active shooters will not attend the Internationals.  Why we would get ourselves so wrapped up in the politics of an international organization, when most of us will not travel to shoot another range, let alone another state or country, puzzles me.  

     When I travel, I do try to visit other ranges.  Last April, I visited a neighboring state and shot in two of their matches, in hopes to get some of those shooters over to Oregon for our big match a couple of weeks ago, and none of them came.  They have great matches with strong local attendance, but I was disappointed in their willingness to support our match.  At my local match, IHMSA shooters must follow IHMSA rules, but we allow rifles and non-sanctioned handgunners to shoot as well.  

     I have had several discussions with Kelly, both online and via email, in the past.  My reference to not wanting to shoot in Alaska, has to do with an attitude which I perceive is developing up there.  As it is unlikely that any of those shooters up there will be attending major championships out of their own state, I do not have any problem with what they want to do at their own matches.  If they want to outlaw freestyle positions and only allow standing in Alaska, that would be fine with me.  If GZ and IHMSA 80X80 want to outlaw Standing and only allow Freestyle in their own states, that would be fine with me, but I would not make the 13 hour drive to LA to shoot with GZ on Labor Day.  Although we allow rifle shooters at our matches, I would never try to convince the IHMSA that we should take our local concerns and force their acceptance nationwide.

     Kelly, I only possess one handgun which would qualify for your standard handgun criteria.  It is a Colt Mustang Pocketlite in .380 ACP.  This is the only reason I would not compete in your new organization.  I would have to spend more money than I already have invested in my silhouette guns, just to be able to compete in the new organization.  I have tried the .380 in FP once.  I shot a 3x40!  Compare that to the 39x40 I shot in FP - P with my Contender and guess which one gets my vote.

Chunter - Keep it local, and you will have no problems.  If you do not like to shoot silhouette with handguns, then that is fine.  If you let folks in KY, LA, CA, AK, AZ, or myself in Oregon scare you away, then you do not want to shoot handgun silhouette to begin with, and you should spend your time and money in pursuits which you do enjoy.  I will be the last one who will say that this sport is for everyone.  I try not to get emotionally involved.  The IHMSA is what it is.  If a shooter decides to go elsewhere, then another organization may be getting a great asset.  If you want to shoot handgun silhouette, do it, but do not say that someone else in a far away state has ruined it for you.

Larry H.

Offline braud357

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« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2004, 01:57:42 PM »
Larry - well said ! --- thanks !

Offline K2

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« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2004, 10:40:06 AM »
Excellent points Larry  :D

The only way to grow the association is on the local level.  As you have noticed few folks will travel very far to shoot at a local or even a State match.  The key is to appeal to what the people in your locality are willing to do in order to participate.   Once a local match has closed down it is very difficult to get it started up again.  I am in the process of building a new range that can handle both center fire and rim fire matches.  This is a bunch of work and won't bare fruit for a few years at least.  Talk to any local MD and the help they really need is for there to be a national advertising campaign.  Our IHMSA News is a good paper but only the membership ever sees it.  We need ads in magazines that non members read.  Ever seen any silhoutte magazine on a magazine rack?  There are Cowboy shooting magazines.  Our board is like a deer caught in the headlights, they know they are about to die but don't know what to do about it, so they are locked in a trans.   They were handed the biggest opportunity in decades with AIR and have only been able to turn it into a giant controversy.  You can no more build a large following based on Morini's or Pardini's in the US of A than you can on FA's and Neisika Bays.  The numbers just are not there.  Specialty guns will get you a small following, loyal - dedicated, but small.  Rifle silhouette is no different. Custom guns, giant scopes and with rare exceptions very small match participation.  

Up here popular seems to be guns that are suitable for wearing on ones hip in the 4 to 6 inch range in general.  I do see a fair amount of older single shot bolt guns that were built for silhouette such as XP's and Wichita's chambered in older wildcats such as 7 IHMSA, or 7 IHMSA rimmed for sale at gun shows.  Word has it that 15 to 20 years ago Silhouette was quite popular in Alaska.  When invited back to the steel game all the past members have said they got out 10 years ago or more and just are not interested.  They still shoot but not silhouette.  I spoke with one man that had a pretty nice FA in .357 set up for silhouette with the long 10 inch barrel.  He wants to sell it to finance a "more useful gun (his words) for a back up while hiking and fishing".  Those who do show an interest in our .22 matches own Mark II's and the Smiths and ruger revolvers.  Barrels are in the 4 to 7 inch range.  Many of these people need lessons in the handgun basics.  These are often much better recieved by the youth than adults that show up.  Silhouette isn't going to grow without a very strong youth and beginner program.  Currently we just don't have one.  Knowly or not we have turned it into an "experts" game and as a result it is difficult to recruit new shooters.   A guy with your shooting ability could easily shoot INT. scores standing with a stock Mark II especially if it would be in 1/2 scale size targets like our FP targets only 1/4" thick.  

Any organization must train the next generation in order to survive or their organization dies out when they do.  I give a big tip of the hat to the NRA and their efforts at marksmanship training.  This is one reason I belong to the NRA even though I do not shoot NRA matches.  

 
Quote from: 54914
Chunter,
     You wrote, "Now I know that I don't want anything to do with an organization that has people in it like this."

     I respectfully disagree.  I, personally, would not want to be associated with an organization that did not have people like this.  By that, I mean an organization that did not tolerate dissent or argument.  Perhaps the perfect organization would have a Board of Directors who would be willing to, purely in the interest of the other members and the sport as a whole, suspend or revoke the membership of an individual for political reasons.  We have been there, and I was there when a new Board publicly apologized to this individual, who is now a State Director.

     Imagine the organization where you have to get on the internet and gather individual members from all over this continent in order to have a discussion of ideas.  The IHMSA, nor its politics, does not impact my local matches, in a negative way.  In my state, 80% of the active shooters will not travel a few (4 1/4 hours at most) to attend one of the largest silhouette championships in the nation, while others came in from Kentucky, Mississippi, and Nebraska.  Nationwide, 95% of the active shooters will not attend the Internationals.  Why we would get ourselves so wrapped up in the politics of an international organization, when most of us will not travel to shoot another range, let alone another state or country, puzzles me.  

     When I travel, I do try to visit other ranges.  Last April, I visited a neighboring state and shot in two of their matches, in hopes to get some of those shooters over to Oregon for our big match a couple of weeks ago, and none of them came.  They have great matches with strong local attendance, but I was disappointed in their willingness to support our match.  At my local match, IHMSA shooters must follow IHMSA rules, but we allow rifles and non-sanctioned handgunners to shoot as well.  

     I have had several discussions with Kelly, both online and via email, in the past.  My reference to not wanting to shoot in Alaska, has to do with an attitude which I perceive is developing up there.  As it is unlikely that any of those shooters up there will be attending major championships out of their own state, I do not have any problem with what they want to do at their own matches.  If they want to outlaw freestyle positions and only allow standing in Alaska, that would be fine with me.  If GZ and IHMSA 80X80 want to outlaw Standing and only allow Freestyle in their own states, that would be fine with me, but I would not make the 13 hour drive to LA to shoot with GZ on Labor Day.  Although we allow rifle shooters at our matches, I would never try to convince the IHMSA that we should take our local concerns and force their acceptance nationwide.

     Kelly, I only possess one handgun which would qualify for your standard handgun criteria.  It is a Colt Mustang Pocketlite in .380 ACP.  This is the only reason I would not compete in your new organization.  I would have to spend more money than I already have invested in my silhouette guns, just to be able to compete in the new organization.  I have tried the .380 in FP once.  I shot a 3x40!  Compare that to the 39x40 I shot in FP - P with my Contender and guess which one gets my vote.

Chunter - Keep it local, and you will have no problems.  If you do not like to shoot silhouette with handguns, then that is fine.  If you let folks in KY, LA, CA, AK, AZ, or myself in Oregon scare you away, then you do not want to shoot handgun silhouette to begin with, and you should spend your time and money in pursuits which you do enjoy.  I will be the last one who will say that this sport is for everyone.  I try not to get emotionally involved.  The IHMSA is what it is.  If a shooter decides to go elsewhere, then another organization may be getting a great asset.  If you want to shoot handgun silhouette, do it, but do not say that someone else in a far away state has ruined it for you.

Larry H.

Offline dawg_doc

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« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2004, 01:38:57 PM »
Kelly,
While I fundamentally don't disagree with much of what you said, I still don't see the end of the world for IHMSA as you do.  Maybe I'm just an extremely fortunate person living in a strong IHMSA area, but we probably have 10 new shooters already this year at our range.  Most of them have joined IHMSA.  These guys (and gals) are shooting S&Ws, DWs, Rugers, etc.  This is a niche sport.  Probably always will be.  I'm not sure what we've been successful at doing, but folks are coming.  We had 120+ guns at our last match.  

I do agree with you, a junior program is very, very needed.  However, I am beginning to wonder if it will work with IHMSA.  Don't get me wrong, I teach kids for 6 months with our 4-H program, but it takes a separate range set-up so that I can change the distances and move the targets in.  I wonder if this will happen during a regular IHMSA match.

cheers.


p.s. Larry, I've tried to make WCC for the past two years.  It's held on a lousy weekend for me with my workschedule

Offline K2

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« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2004, 02:17:31 PM »
Hi Dawg Doc  :grin:

Idaho does have a fairly strong following in part no doubt to Elgins home stomping grounds.  For all his faults he was the Promoter we needed.  Your border states of Montana and Washington don't have near the participation.  If you watch the B section you will notice many smaller matches are no longer a going concern from just a few years ago.  In Region 7 only Oregon and Idaho are holding steady, Utah in 6 is having the same problems we are in Alaska, and it is not due to a lack of effort on Tim Montgomery's part, he has tried a lot of things.  You can still have dry feet on a sinking ship if you are in the crows nest

While the number of "guns" is great a more meaningful number is the number of shooters.  At a 2 day match 120 guns could mean as few as 15 shooters.  The closer targets for the youth are so easy to do it is hardly worth notice.  Swingers or old targets can be fine.  For AIR we use a second set of Turkeys and Rams set right next to the chickens and pigs and it works fine.  Once these youth get to 75% or more we work them into the regular distances.  The resistance to the idea only shows that jrs. and IHMSA are still a long way from coming together.  Too bad as that is the only way to a positive expanding future.  Have you been approached about creating a working jr. program yet?  If not that says a lot.  From the get go we will be building a bridge to the 4-H if we finalize the new silhouette group.  Partnering up with them and only allowing adult leaders to work directly with the youth formally is risk management #1.  Scholarships need to be part of the plan as well.  

I do not believe that the IHMSA will totally go under, but a major downsizing will have to happen if the trend in declining membership doesn't turn around.  Already we have many vacancies, jr director, industry relations, President.  
Quote from: dawg_doc
Kelly,
While I fundamentally don't disagree with much of what you said, I still don't see the end of the world for IHMSA as you do.  Maybe I'm just an extremely fortunate person living in a strong IHMSA area, but we probably have 10 new shooters already this year at our range.  Most of them have joined IHMSA.  These guys (and gals) are shooting S&Ws, DWs, Rugers, etc.  This is a niche sport.  Probably always will be.  I'm not sure what we've been successful at doing, but folks are coming.  We had 120+ guns at our last match.  

I do agree with you, a junior program is very, very needed.  However, I am beginning to wonder if it will work with IHMSA.  Don't get me wrong, I teach kids for 6 months with our 4-H program, but it takes a separate range set-up so that I can change the distances and move the targets in.  I wonder if this will happen during a regular IHMSA match.

cheers.


p.s. Larry, I've tried to make WCC for the past two years.  It's held on a lousy weekend for me with my workschedule

Offline dawg_doc

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« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2004, 03:20:39 PM »
Quote from: akihmsa
Hi Dawg Doc  :grin:

Idaho does have a fairly strong following in part no doubt to Elgins home stomping grounds.  

At a 2 day match 120 guns could mean as few as 15 shooters.  The closer targets for the youth are so easy to do it is hardly worth notice.  Swingers or old targets can be fine.  

Have you been approached about creating a working jr. program yet?  If not that says a lot.  


No question, I'm sitting in a good spot for silhouette.  No arguements there.

Actually, we had probably close to 45 shooters.  One heck of a turnout.

Yep, I've been approached and I'm working on it.  It'll happen, but it will take some time.  No question we're behind the times.

In the meantime, the trout are biting.  A couple days of holding onto the fat end of a flyrod are in order......

Offline K2

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« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2004, 09:00:28 AM »
That is excellent news on the jr. program Curt!  This will be a real positive if it gets backed.   Fewer targets in closer is what will get a pre teen enough hits to want to come back for more.  Whatever format you come up with will be an improvement over today.  Be aware that the rug can be pulled out from under you at any time as only the board approves changes and they can modify delete and ignor your recomendations.  

Thru the grape vine we get bits and pieces of info that some of the board are following this debate and are starting to realize that they need to deal with all the membership needs instead of just top competitors wishes.  I remember well when the big 3 car makers failed to see the need for a car that got better milage right up till the time they were playing catch up to the new comers such as Honda.

28 years ago IHMSA was the newcomer.    
Quote from: dawg_doc
Quote from: akihmsa
Hi Dawg Doc  :grin:

Idaho does have a fairly strong following in part no doubt to Elgins home stomping grounds.  

At a 2 day match 120 guns could mean as few as 15 shooters.  The closer targets for the youth are so easy to do it is hardly worth notice.  Swingers or old targets can be fine.  

Have you been approached about creating a working jr. program yet?  If not that says a lot.  


No question, I'm sitting in a good spot for silhouette.  No arguements there.

Actually, we had probably close to 45 shooters.  One heck of a turnout.

Yep, I've been approached and I'm working on it.  It'll happen, but it will take some time.  No question we're behind the times.

In the meantime, the trout are biting.  A couple days of holding onto the fat end of a flyrod are in order......