Reloading for 30 Bellm / Problems ?

[J Henkle]

Can anyone give me some insite on this round?

I purchase two barrels early this spring.  I kept one and a buddy took the other.

Mine shoots 3-4" groups at a hundred, my buddies shoots ragged holes.  I'm reloading for the both of us, as we purchased one set of dies.

The scope I'm using is proven good on a XP in 223.  I have notice lots of copper on the lands at the muzzle on mine after 6-7 rounds.  My buddies shows NONE after 20.  I'm told both 14" barrels were cut from the same blank.  

The seller has offered to replace the barrel if I return it and it does not shoot for him either.  I just want to be sure I have exhausted everything on my end first.

One last thing, I have a 10" 300 Whisper that shoots fantastic on this same frame....

The currnt load for both is 28.0grs Reloder 7, WLR primer and 125 Nosler BTs.  I have tried seating the bullets close it the rifling(with litttle bullet in the NK) and seating the bullet one caliber deep and letting the neck set the run out....

Suggestions?  Jody

[KYODE]

what about the forearm? have you floated it off the barrel? is your buddies barrel floated?

if not:
try 2 correct size stainless washers to shim with. place one at each forearm mounting screw, between the wood and barrel attachment.
test to see if a one dollar bill will slide freely between to assure the barrel is not touching the wood.

another obvious question......have YOU shot the OTHER barrel, and get the same results?  :?

i'd guess best results with seating the bullet approx. one caliber deep, as opposed to hardly any neck holding the bullet.

tried other loads? maybe( :? ) sumthin ain't workin in yours, but is his.

[Moe]

You need to swap things around and see where the problem goes. ONe specific barrel...forend...scope...shooter?

[Keith L]

I have the washers floating my barrels, but I don't see much difference.  Groups are about the same with or without.  I don't shoot hand cannons, but washers didn't change any of my barrels.  I also don't have the trouble with bipods that some have.  I use a swivel stud as the front screw on the forends and put the bipod there.

I get groups off a rest with the 30-30 at 100m yards that I can cover with a quarter, and my 17HMR routinely shoots dime sized groups.  These are good enough for me.  I never had a handgun that shoots so well.

I expect the washers help, but you can't prove it by me.  Now that I have said something I am sure the next barrel I get will give me fits.

[SD Handgunner]

Aside from the floated forends, different frames shooting different barrels differently, and everything else involved, you mentioned seeing copper fouling at the muzzle end of the bore.

To me this is the first place to look and try to correct. If you are experiencing foulding in a few shots it is time to break out the FLITZ Bore Polish. First of all get the bore squeaky clean. Take a proper sized patch on a proper sized brass jag. Coat the patch with FLITZ Bore Polish and work it back and forth from end to end of the bore in even strokes. After about 15 to 20 strokes replace the patch with a clean one and repeat. After a couple patches you should be able to feel a difference. The little microscopic catches you feel as the patch is pushed through the bore will disappear.

Once you are done with this, again clean the bore squeaky clean. Now head for the range with your cleaning kit and 50 rounds of ammo. For the first 10 rounds after each shot fired run 2 or 3 patches soaked in Shooters Choice through the bore followed by 2 or 3 dry patches. Now for the next 10 rounds shoot two rounds and then run 2 or 3 patches soaked in Shooters Choice through the bore followed by 2 or 3 dry patches. Then go to three rounds between patching until you are done with the 50 rounds of ammo.

Once this is all done clean the bore squeaky clean once again, and go to shooting. I have found that breaking in a barrel with this method, the barrels do not foul nearly as badly as a barrel that has not been broken in properly. I have also taken used barrels that I was not pleased with the accuracy off, done the above to them and they turned in to being quite good shooters.

Since you mentioned fouling, I think this is the place to start. Once you get the fouling under control and are still not happy with the accuracy, then we'll look elsewhere for other answers.

SD Handgunner

[J Henkle]

My buddies forearm is not floated.  I get similar results when I shoot his, not as small as his, but round and in 1 1/2".   When I shoot mine, I have got groups as large as 10" at 100 yards......  I can get my Whisper to shoot ragged holes, so I don't think it is the shooter or the frame....

I have added the washers under the forearm and removed all traces of Copper with CR-10.  I will repost when I have tested fully....

I really apprecate the help and suggestions as I really want to shoot this round for IL deer season.  I would feel bad if I sent it back for replacement if I have not given it my best shot.....  I need to have my buddy shoot my barrel, as he is a crack shot......

Thanks again!  jh

[KYODE]

this is very interesting, and i'd sure like to hear what cures the problem. we can all learn from it possibly. :wink:

[billjoe]

It would be interesting to see how he handles your gun.

bj

[HHI-7420]

J Henkle, take a look at your crown-it may not be there or it may be poorly done.  Pat

[J Henkle]

A little update.

I have floated the barrel with washers, lightened the trigger a bit, and decided that this barrel hates the 125 ballistic tips.... Very unfortunate!

The groups have shrank to 2" if I clean every 5-6 rounds with CR10 and use 130 gr SSP bullets.  I think this is where the problem lies.  Very strange that the second barrel from the original blank does not foul.  

I am still not thrilled with the 2" groups, seeing how the other barrel shoots ragged holes.  Also I don't mind cleaning, but this is a little much for me.

I will continue to work on it.  I'm going to load 50 rounds a clean after each shot to see if I can get the barrel to stop copper fouling.  I would love to take Flitz or JB to it, but don't want to void the replacement agreement with the seller.  If I have not solved this mystry in a month, I will get it mailed of, so that I still have plenty of time to wring out the new barrel before deer season.....

Thanks for the help and suggestions!  jh

[KYODE]

do ya oil the barrel's bore after cleaning? do ya dry it out before shooting?

[J Henkle]

I always leave Kroil in the bores after cleaning, and then run a couple dry patches thru before I go to the bench.....  I also always wipe the chamber dry/clean with acetone on a long wooden Qtips to avoid excessive head thrust.

I have heard of people leaving oil in the bore for less fouling, but I have never tried it.  I have also heard of heat and pressure cooking that stuff to the bore.  Don't know if it is true or not.

I suspect moly bullets may fix the problem, but would like to be able to shoot uncoated bullets, especially on a meat gun.  Anyone know if Moly is toxic???

The good new.....  If I never get my 30B to shoot, I have a 300 Whisper in the safe begging to shoot it's 3rd whitetail.....

What's your take on leaing oil in the bore?  jh

(Pat- the crown looks great!  Thanks jh)

[rickyp]

are you 100% sure they are from the same blank?

[Graycg]

You need to back off those light loads with RL7 and get into slower powders, and maybe even heavier bullets. My 308 Bellm barrels all (3 of them) shoot extremely well with the 4895s, 4064, 4350 and accurate 2700, the really shine with 150 grain nosler Ballistic tips.
    You are shooting very weak loads with poor loading density, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.  Try a full case of slower powder and see how it goes.  

regards,
 graycg

[J Henkle]

rickyp - When I received both barrels, I noticed some numbers stamped on the bottom of the recoil lug.  30 10 and 3/5 and 4/5.  I called the seller or re-seller and inquired.  He said 30 was for .308, 10 was 10" twist, and 3 and 4 of 5 was for barrel 3 and barrel 4 of barrel blank no. 5......  So unless something got mixed up at the shop, they are from the same blank.

Graycg- I think you are confusing the 30 Bell'm with the 308 Bell'm.  I'm shooting a 444 Marlin shorted to an over all case length of 1.4" and necked to .308.  I believe you are think of the full length 444 version necked to .308.  

28.0 grains fills the case almost to the base of the neck, and I can feel a powder crunch when I set a bullet.  This is the recommended load with 125BT and 130SSP bullets.   The 125s seem to be out totally.  What a shame I really like the bullet and it's BC.  I shot a deer last year at 70 yards and had compete penetration thru the far shoulder with the 300 Whisper.  With this 30B and more velocity, I was not wanting to go to a bullet heavier than the 125.  In fact I was considering going to a bullet weight of 110-120 with a thin skin.  I really can't afford over penetration or a round getting lose in one of the areas I hunt.  My main area actually.....  

I'll probably get it sent back in a couple weeks, but this one really has me scratching my head.  Must be the copper.....   jh

[xphunter]

Have you tinkered any with your OAL?  
Some barrels are very finicky with how close/far the bullet is from the lands.

[J Henkle]

Yeah, I have tried 4 different depths.  Jammed, slightly jammed, just touching and 1 caliber deep in the case, which puts it no near the lands...  

May be I should try a couple thou off the lands.    jh

[Graycg]

My apologies!!
   You are correct, I was thinking about  the 308 Bellm, and this frigging ***** crap is what distracted me.  I have to admit that I've never played with the 30 bellm, another gentleman named HeloBill has but he doesn't post here anymore.  
   Now for your problem:  if the same blank was used as it appears it was, and you use the same frame, same forend, and same ammo and one shoots good and the other doesn't, I'd look very closely at the crown of the muzzle.  If that doesn't seem to be the problem, you have developed quite a case to go back to the maker and insist they replace your barrel with another one.  Any good maker should honor your request as your evidence appears irrefutable.

good luck, and again my ******Apologies for my confusion on the 308 vs 30 issue.

regards,
 graycg

[J Henkle]

No problem, it took me a few minutes to figure out where you were coming from, but then it was the preverbal light bulb.....

The seller Danny Cambell has graciously offered to replace the barrel if it will not shoot for him either.  Great customer service!  I just don't want to cry wolf with out doing my home work and find it was something I was over looking or doing wrong.

Crown looks very nice under magnification.  Even traces of burnt powder on the crown as well.

I'll shoot it for another week or two before I send it off.  

Thanks for all the suggestions!  jh

Oh, by the way.  Is there a reason HeloBill does not post here anymore?  He is the one that turned me on to this case in the first place.  He even mailed me a fired case before I could get my hands on brass barrels and dies.  jh