Author Topic: Load for CO elk, .54 cal (Read 1562 times)

papabear · « **on:** June 30, 2004, 03:58:01 PM »

I should have come here first, but I will explain my situation I am in the middle of. In Sept, I go to Colorado with my Knight BK 92 for elk. I have always shot sabots on Iowa deer, so need to remove the scope and work up a non-sabot load. I am looking for helpful comments and suggestions, and here is what I know so far:

T/C 435 gr Maxiball/100 gr. 777 loose group very well, but I wanted something bigger and were told they do not expand much.

Precision Ultimate 1 500 gr./100 and 110 gr 777 shoot terrible. Groups all over the place (at 75 yards with scope)

Knight suggested Parker Bullets, so I emailed them and Robert Parker himself calls me back on the phone, spends 5 minutes discussing my needs, and is sending me 588 gr. Traditionals, says to use over the powder wads for sure, and he will just "send the bill with the bullets". That is what I call service for $10 worth of purchase and he doesn't even have my money yet! He says the Hydra Con's will shoot to the same center, but try the cheaper Traditionals first to be sure. The Hydra Con's expand very well according to what he said.

So: give me your thoughts and experience on bullets/powder. By the way, I believe I have 1:28 twist, 24" length, and use #11 caps.

Thanks, and have a great day.

oneshotonekill · « **Reply #1 on:** July 01, 2004, 01:43:45 AM »

What about the power belt bullets? In 54 cal you can get 348, 405, 444 grain in hollow point or aero tip. They are considered bore sized conicals so they should be legal (I would double check first).

papabear · « **Reply #2 on:** July 01, 2004, 01:04:46 PM »

I have not used Powerbelts before. I was told by a company guy once that they were legal. I was thinking that for elk I should go to the heaviest bullet I could shoot well, thus my try on the 500-588 gr. Do you think the heaviest Powerbelt would be heavy enough? Have you had any experience shooting them in .54 or other calibers?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** July 01, 2004, 02:54:00 PM »

There are a couple stories in the latest Blackpowder Huntng magazine about hunters killing moose with .45 cal 240gr bullet, I don't see why an even larger bullet of 348 or bigger shouldn't kill elk, afterall, the bullets must still be placed properly, no matter what the caliber.

oneshotonekill · « **Reply #4 on:** July 01, 2004, 04:33:02 PM »

Any of the 54 cal power belts would work for elk. I would think 348 grains is plenty for elk the 405 and 444 would be more than enough. If long shots are a possibility I'd opt for the power belt over a 500+ grain slug. The 500 grainer may carry more energy but it will have trajectory like a rainbow. I think the power belts would offer plenty of down range energy and would shoot flatter. I have used power belts in 45 and 50 but not in my 54 cal. If you can get a hold of some it may be worth giving them a try.

sabotloader · « **Reply #5 on:** July 01, 2004, 05:43:51 PM »

papabear - a couple of things- if you are gonna get clase to that Elk those big conicals are great actualy they are very good out in the 100 yard range also if you are use to shooting them and can figure in the variable, range, elevation, temperature, Xwind and etc.

I think I would look very hard at a powerbelt, they are much esier to load fly great and they will do the job. While the variables are still there they are somewhat reduced. They shoot flatter and hard, if I couldn't use sabots this is the projectile I would use. In Idaho I am able to use sabots and bullets - I am shooting 300 grain Noslers to get the job done - little to much for the local deer but good for elk.

Several post I have seen from Colorado all seem to be talking about Power Belts. Might give them a call also they are located here in idaho and have a Web sight.

PowerBelt Bullets. 16345 Midway Road. Nampa, ID 83651. Phone (800)376-4010. Fax (208)466-6927.

http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/

Are you using a guide in Colorado? If you are he is probably your best resource - talk to him

papabear · « **Reply #6 on:** July 02, 2004, 04:52:24 PM »

It looks like the vote goes to Powerbelt from you folks. I will take a look at them, but will not toss aside the larger 500+ bullets just yet. I do know that with my old, tired eyes I will be looking at 100 yrds maximum, and probably 75 yards maximum with open sights. Trajectory is not so important at that short range.

As far as energy, I have seen figures showing the smaller bullets with "higher" energy, because the common calculation favors velocity. Many of the big bullet folks would disagree with that way of calculating.

Thanks for your help, and any further thoughts are welcome. I believe this is my outfitter's first muzzleloader hunt. He guides a lot of archery and rifle hunts; I should check with him anyway.

Longcruise · « **Reply #7 on:** July 11, 2004, 02:48:19 PM »

Papabear,

Quote

T/C 435 gr Maxiball/100 gr. 777 loose group very well, but I wanted something bigger and were told they do not expand much.

The TC Maxi ball is just not a vary good design IMO. It has that pointy nose that causes it to penetrate without making much of a wound channel. I killed my first elk with a 370 grain .50 cal maxi and the animal stayed on it's feet a bit long for my nerves. If he had run he would have coverd a 1/4 mile easy. Luckily he did not run and keeled over just as I stepped into position to shoot again.

As far as expansion goes, none of the pure lead bullets are going to expand very much at 1200 fps or less. Hollow points might help a bit but not much. It's just the nature of lead. Second thought on expansion is you don't need it. You are better off with a non expanding or moderately expanding slug with a flat nose in any big game slug from .45 on up when hunting large bodied animals (you will need a min of .50 in CO for elk). A none expanding flat nose will retain it's sectional density and velocity as it travels through the animal. End result is a good wound channel and if it takes the heart or heart lungs or both lungs, the animal will expire quite quickly! Killing big animals is all about reducing blood pressure to zero as fast as possible and an adequate wound channel will do it. Radical expansion will bring penetration to a halt, possibly before you have gotten the heart or both lungs. If you don't hit the heart, you need to take out both lungs or else you will be tracking and may not recover your elk.

Quote

and is sending me 588 gr. Traditionals,

Go ahead and shoot those huge slugs if you like, but mostly you will be dealing with a lot of unnecessary recoil. Recoil that will discourage you from pracitce :eek: Power belts in the 300 to 350 range should work ok and are legal in CO.

Actually, if you have a .50 cal gun I'd recommend it over the .54 when shooting conicals. A 350 or 400 grain .50 will have a much better secional density than a 350 or 400 grain .54 and will have equal velocity too.

That's my .02 worth and many will disagree so just take it for what it's worth to you. Good luck on your hunt. BTW, what unit will you be in?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 11, 2004, 03:47:32 PM »

I would highly recommend you try the power belts also. But if you get good success with the Parker Bullets, go with them. I like big lead also. I shoot a Shiloh Sharps in 45-70 with BP cartridges, and I love the 500 to 550 gr. bullets. I use paper patch, so my bullets are pure lead. Nice silver dollar size exit wounds. :grin:

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #9 on:** July 11, 2004, 04:12:14 PM »

Quote from: papabear

I should have come here first, but I will explain my situation I am in the middle of. In Sept, I go to Colorado with my Knight BK 92 for elk. I have always shot sabots on Iowa deer, so need to remove the scope and work up a non-sabot load. I am looking for helpful comments and suggestions, and here is what I know so far:

T/C 435 gr Maxiball/100 gr. 777 loose group very well, but I wanted something bigger and were told they do not expand much.

Precision Ultimate 1 500 gr./100 and 110 gr 777 shoot terrible. Groups all over the place (at 75 yards with scope)

Knight suggested Parker Bullets, so I emailed them and Robert Parker himself calls me back on the phone, spends 5 minutes discussing my needs, and is sending me 588 gr. Traditionals, says to use over the powder wads for sure, and he will just "send the bill with the bullets". That is what I call service for $10 worth of purchase and he doesn't even have my money yet! He says the Hydra Con's will shoot to the same center, but try the cheaper Traditionals first to be sure. The Hydra Con's expand very well according to what he said.

So: give me your thoughts and experience on bullets/powder. By the way, I believe I have 1:28 twist, 24" length, and use #11 caps.

Thanks, and have a great day.

http://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/page3.html

NoExcuses Bullets! Proven Big Game Bullets! And The Nices Guy To Trade With! Give him an email. You've got nothing to loose! One Vote Aginst The PB's

The Exit Side!

A 460 grain NoExcuses at 135 yards.

Jules J.

sabotloader · « **Reply #10 on:** July 11, 2004, 04:53:16 PM »

Quote

Go ahead and shoot those huge slugs if you like, but mostly you will be dealing with a lot of unnecessary recoil. Recoil that will discourage you from pracitce Power belts in the 300 to 350 range should work ok and are legal in CO.

Longcruise is right on the ball in my estimation. The big heavy conicals are and were the standard in BP guns for years and changing the trend is always difficult - but there are so many advantages to velocity + SD + BC - it removes a lot of the variable from shooting a muzzle loader.

The only thing I would add to what LC said is the "hydraulic effect" that your bullet has on the internal organs as it passes through the body cavity. You really don't have to hit the vitals if you are using a bullet that penetrates and expands correctly. The concussion and hydraulics of the bullet especially in the chest cavity should do all the damage necessary. An additional + that i want is the cutting action that copper clad bullet gives as it passes through the animal.

Energy is the standard for havesting an animal but realize the range you are shooting, the trajectory of the projectile, and the time in flight. One of the biggest calculations that is ignored in shooting is Xwind. The bigger slower projectiles react to Xwind readily and can be moved off target. All of this is a moot point if everything you shoot is under 60 yards and posing for you.

Best of luck

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #11 on:** July 11, 2004, 05:06:28 PM »

Funny I don't feel the recoil every body talks about. Shotguns kill me! But that 460 grain NoExcuses conical is real easy on my shoulder and cheek. I would never ask any one to shoot some thing that would hurt them. May be it's the stright English stock I shoot.

The NoExcuses gives Great results. Give the man an email and ask him. He Top Level in my book. Don't need to lead you on because he got a Great Conical with PROVEN results. Picture tell the tail!

Jules J.

papabear · « **Reply #12 on:** July 14, 2004, 05:41:37 PM »

Thanks to all for your opinions, advice, and info. I will try and get out and shoot this weekend. I have some Powerbelts, and the Parker "monster" bullets came also. I will try them and see what I think. I will let you folks know what I decide.

I especially appreciate info on what worked from experienced elk hunters. My only elk was with a 30-06 (sorry, I cannot tell a lie). I have taken quite a few Iowa deer with both my T/C Scout .50 and my Knight .54 however.

Thanks again.

fairchase · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2004, 05:52:08 AM »

Try the Colorado Conical form PR Bullets, it's 535grs.

papabear · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2004, 06:12:10 AM »

I tried the "Cabela's Colorado Conicals" .54, 500 gr. from Precision Rifle Bullets, and they shot very poorly. I thought instead of trying their heavier bullet, I would change to something else. Have you shot Precision's 535 gr. in .54 cal?

fairchase · « **Reply #15 on:** July 16, 2004, 08:11:21 AM »

Yea papabear, I shoot them out of a Lyman inline with 85 gr of 777. That rifle has a 1in 24 twist barrel and the set-up is very accurate. It's just the cheap hollow stock and those big bullets tear my shoulder off :eek: but with that fast of a twist barrel, that's what's needed for elk, in conical only states like Oregon and Colorado. Good luck.