Author Topic: Non-standard target/sniper rounds  (Read 988 times)

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Offline BattleRifleG3

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Non-standard target/sniper rounds
« on: November 12, 2004, 09:38:39 PM »
I've been trying to think outside of the box, the box being that all target/sniper rifles have to be in 308 or 223 or some wildcat of them, or some high dollar specialty rifle that weights a ton or is tyhe wierdest shaped thing in the world.

I was thinking if we're not worrying about ammo supply in an emergency situation, but want something comfortable, affordable, and accurate that could do the job in an emergency if necessary.  I'm thinking perhaps police snipers could use a round besides 308 with good results.  Many of these rounds fire bullets smaller than 30 cal at much flatter trajectories and higher speeds than their 30 cal counterparts in case size and action length, and have less recoil.

I was thinking among rounds such as the 6.5x55 Swede, 6.5 Rem Mag, 264 Win mag, 243 Win, 243 WSSM, 257 Roberts, 250-3000, 25-06, 25 WSSM, 270 Win, 270 WSM, 7mm-08, 280 Rem, 284 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm WSM, 7mm SAUM, 7mm STW (how does this compare to Rem mag?), and such.  Basically rounds that take 308 or 30-06 sized cases and trade bullet weight and width for a flatter trajectory and a higher ballistic coefficient.

Hoping such a round could take accurate shots at 1000yds.  Not drop an elk or anything, but possibly a <200lb critter.

A few rifles I had though of were the Rem 7400 and BAR.  Possibly a Win 100 in 284.  Or an AR-10 in 243 or one of the short magnum chamberings.  A while back I had the idea that a BAR in 7mm would make an excellent sniper rifle.  And more recently the Rem 7400 in 270, though I've read more faultless reviews of the BAR.
And then of course our favorite lineup of reasonably accurate and affordable bolt action rifles.

So what rounds do you think woulds be best for this?  One that seems to stand out is the 6.5 Swede, though I've read that some American chamberings aren't good for the long bullets that are so incredibly accurate, making Steyr and CZ rifles apparently the only way to go in addition to the 96 Mausers.  I'm wondering how our more common chamberings like 270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, and the 25 series compare when chambered in the better rifles we have to offer.
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Offline stork

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Non-standard target/sniper rounds
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2004, 09:36:36 AM »
Well as far as the rifles are concerned I think the only semi auto rifle that is suitabe for a target/sniper rifle is a AR-15 or the AR-10.  ANd the good old bolt action is probably the best action for target/sniping.

Some of the rounds you mentioned like the 264 Win mag and the 7mm STW would not be a very good target/sniper round becasue barrle life would be an issue.  The 260 rem is one round you didn't that would be perfect is an AR-10.  Most of the rounds you mentioned would probably be good to 1000 yards with the right bullets except the rounds in .257 caliber, because I don't think there is an acceptable bullet for that kind of range.  If all shots would be 600 to 800 yards max then I think all those rounds would be fine.  The rounds in 6.5 and 7mm would be the best calibers because they have a very good selection of good bullets suitable for long range work normally ascoiated with target shooting and sniping.
I don't know about rounds in .277, but I think they would be suitable.

Offline stork

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Non-standard target/sniper rounds
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2004, 09:39:01 AM »
Well as far as the rifles are concerned I think the only semi auto rifle that is suitabe for a target/sniper rifle is a AR-15 or the AR-10.  ANd the good old bolt action is probably the best action for target/sniping.

Some of the rounds you mentioned like the 264 Win mag and the 7mm STW would not be a very good target/sniper round becasue barrle life would be an issue.  The 260 rem is one round you didn't that would be perfect is an AR-10.  If all shots would be 600 to 800 yards max then I think all those rounds would be fine.  The rounds in 6.5 and 7mm would be the best calibers because they have a very good selection of good bullets suitable for long range work normally ascoiated with target shooting and sniping.
I don't know about rounds in .277, but I think they would be suitable.
The 6.5x55 swede and the 7mm rem mag would probably be the best rounds.

Offline Lawdog

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Non-standard target/sniper rounds
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2004, 12:03:56 PM »
BattleRifleG3,

Quote
A few rifles I had though of were the Rem 7400 and BAR. Possibly a Win 100 in 284. Or an AR-10 in 243 or one of the short magnum chamberings.


The 7400, BAR or Win. 100  doesn't exist that is accurate enough for a sniper rifle.  As for caliber keep in mind that you can't use just any target type bullet so a few of the rounds you mentioned are out.  The .308 is the standard because of it's noted accuracy and killing qualities.  The 7.62mm NATO worked for me in Viet Nam and all the police departments that I know of and I see no reason to change.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline BattleRifleG3

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Non-standard target/sniper rounds
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2004, 07:27:45 PM »
I'm not talking military sniper, not even necessarily "sniper", mainly a hunting/target semi-auto than could effectively do an unfortunate job if necessary.

I've heard mixed accuracy reports of the Rem 7400, and don't know much at all about the Win 100, but have never heard of the BAR doing less than 1MOA with good ammo.  Suppose I should ask this in the semi/pump forum relating to the 740, 100, and BAR.

So maybe I should be asking is what experience do you guys have using hunting rifles in these calibers on paper?  How accurate are they cabable of being in which rifles?  Which have good bullet selection for accurate target shooting?  Wondering particularly if any high accuracy ammo is out there for 270 Win and 7mm Rem Mag.
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Offline victorcharlie

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Non-standard target/sniper rounds
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2004, 01:55:43 AM »
My 7400 in .270 will get a 1.5" 3 shot group at 100 yards on a good day.  Most groups are in the 2" range.  This is not a tack driver, and IMO would not be suitable for any type of precision shooting.
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Offline KYsquirrelsniper

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Non-standard target/sniper rounds
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2004, 12:22:52 AM »
Although it would be nice, it's hard to get a cartridge that is suitable for target/sniping to 1,000yds and also be capable of cleanly taking deer sized game at 1,000yds. I know everyone will say the military uses the 308 to shoot at humans at long range, but that's a whole different ball game than trying to cleanly take a game animal which is of much tougher construction.

Basically, the rounds that are capable of clean game kills at 1,000yds aren't suited to target/sniping due to short barrel life and excessive recoil. On the other hand, the rounds that are suitable for target/sniping don't have the required power for consistently effective results on game at long range.

Picking a hunting round is the easy part. Most modern cartridges can be accurate enough, as the majority of the raw accuracy requirement is up to the rifle it's fired from. So, any cartridge which provides enough power for the game is good enough. In today's world of extremely large magnums, there are several which are capable of taking whitetail at 1,000yds. However, the number of rifles capable of the required accuracy is much fewer, and the number of shooters capable of it is probably only a small fraction of 1%.

Now, for target/sniping, the choice becomes more problematic, especially if it will be used for competition where every available point can make a difference. Since barrel life and recoil are a concern, most of the magnums are out of the question unless you're dedicated to shooting 1,000yd BR. Again though, there are several good choices and a lot of cartridges can be made to work with proper loads and bullets. The 308 is a great example. It certainly isn't the ideal choice for 1,000yd shooting, but it can be made to work okay with proper bullet and load selection. Heck, even the 223 has been made to do okay at 1,000yds with very specialized heavy VLD bullets in fast twist barrels. Right now, probably the best all-around choice for accurate 1,000yd target shooting with low recoil and reasonable barrel life is the 6mm BR. However, other very suitable choices are the 260, 6.5x55, 6.5-284 (barrel life is a concern) 30-06 (recoil is a concern with 190s), 7mm-08, 308 and probably a bunch more that I can't think of right off the top of my head. Lately, I've been thinking about rebarreling one of my Savages to a fast twist 7mm-08 as it seems to me to be a great choice for long range that gets overlooked more often than not.

As for the rifle itself, a bolt action is of course the most suitable choice, because they're easy to make accurate, they're reliable as a claw hammer, and fast repeat shots aren't going to be needed at 1,000yds because it takes over a second for the bullet to get there and you almost certainly won't see where it hit unless you stir up some dust or hit a reactive target. So, unless you're absolutely certain you've made the correct elevation and windage corrections, you aren't going to be able to do any rapid fire. For somewhere between 1 and 2 seconds you're stuck waiting to see what happens to the target or get the call from the spotter. Rapid fire simply isn't practical for the application at hand.

Now, if I was going to use a semi-auto, the AR-15 or AR-10 is about the only rifles I'd choose, at least in a practical price range that the average person could afford anyway. I've never been able to get acceptable accuracy (for LR purposes) out of the other common "hunting" semi-autos. In my experience, the BARs aren't good for any better than 1 MOA, and that's if you happen to get lucky and find a good load. The 7400s I've shot weren't good for any better than 1.5" even with good loads. Now, before someone says theirs shoots better than that, well yeah anything is possible, but I'm talking about always shooting MOA or better. Although wind reading ability and having low SD are two of the most important factors for LR shooting, and your short range groups often don't correlate to the LR performance of your rifle, if your rifle won't always hold MOA or better at reasonably short distances, then you're probably going to be very unhappy when you shoot to 1,000yds.
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Offline BattleRifleG3

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Non-standard target/sniper rounds
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2004, 03:30:37 PM »
Great to see ya here, C130E!  Just now recognized your avatar and profile from G&G.

I've been thinking a little about this topic, looked over some ammo prices, and it's looking like 270 and 7mm are the most common and affordable that have the sort of ballistics I'm thinking of.  I was impressed at how much flatter 300 Win Mag seemed than 7mm.

What would you guys think of a BAR in one of those two calibers?
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Offline BattleRifleG3

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Non-standard target/sniper rounds
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2004, 05:08:34 PM »
Just read some Remington factory ballistics and came up with some interesting results.  At 500yds, believe it or not, a 168gr 308 has less drop than a 150gr 270.  The 130gr 270 and both 150gr and 175gr 7mms are a bit higher and around the same point as each other.  So it looks like at 500yd, 308 is better than 270 (more so due to match loadings and lower prices in general, and more rifles for it.)  There is improvement by using a lighter 270 round or a 7mm, but not incredibly much proportionally.

What's interesting are the shorter range (300yd)trajectories.  270 and 7mm seem to have pretty similar trajectories, as does the 260 Rem (if only it weren't so danged expensive), whose 6.5mm bullets are known for their extreme accuracy.  They're also much better than 308's 300yd trajectory, and have more muzzle energy and velocity, and even more at 500.  In fact, they're about the same velocity as several 7mm loads at 500.

All this is leaving me wishing they made a semi-auto in 260 Rem.  I was hoping 270 would have the best trajectories, but even the heavier bullets of 7mm seem to best it.

I'm sure 260 Rem would smoke them both in the accuracy department.  Anyone know how the accuracy of 7mm and 270 tend to compare?

Just checked the specs on 270 WSM, has about 3/4 the drop of the 7mm at 500, and about the same at 300.  The 270 Wby is a bit better, not sure if it would justify the cost of Weatherby Ammo, but accuracy might.

There's only one semi-auto in 260 Rem that I know of:


While accuracy is one of the qualities of DSA, my platform of preference would be the AR-10 in A2 config with a 24" barrel.  Then again, maybe my eyes are too shot for such accurate shooting with open sites, so maybe the flattop would be a better choice.
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