Author Topic: 7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegally  (Read 1350 times)

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Offline Dali Llama

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegally
« on: August 17, 2004, 09:01:28 AM »
7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegally

More than 7,000 people who should have been barred from buying guns were able to buy them in 2002 and 2003, according to a US Justice Department review.

The US government rarely prosecuted such cases, said the report.

The law stipulates that gun buyers might have to wait up to three business days before receiving their weapons. Under a system of instant FBI background checks instituted in 1998, most sales are approved much more quickly. Of the 17 million gun purchases in the last two years, 122,000 were denied because of the checks.

If the background check is not completed within the period, however, the law says the purchase must go through. In 2002 and 2003, there were a combined 7,030 “delayed denial” cases in which the FBI found that a prohibited person was able to get a gun after the period expired, according to the review by Glenn Fine, the justice department’s inspector general.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives retrieved the weapon in 97% of those cases. That sometimes took a year or longer, ample time for an illegal buyer to use the gun to commit a crime.

The study did not say how many times that occurred but provided some examples, including an instance in which a prohibited buyer was charged with aggravated assault after firing the illegally-purchased weapon at another personÂ’s car.

Several reasons were cited by ATF for its failure to retrieve the guns more quickly, including staffing shortages, technology problems and lack of adequate timeliness standards. The review also found that ATF agents did not consider it a priority to track down the illegal gun purchasers because they are not viewed as dangerous.

“We were also told that ‘bad guys’ generally do not purchase their firearms through legitimate dealers” but instead do so illegally, at unregulated gun shows, flea markets or through other means, the review said.

The study also found that federal prosecutors brought charges in only 154 of the 122,000 illegal purchase cases.

Many US lawyers believed cases were difficult to bring to a jury, the review said, partly because a denial could occur because of seemingly minor offences that happened long ago. Examples include a man who had stolen a pig in 1941, a person convicted of cheque forgery in 1959 and someone with an attempted burglary conviction dating to 1963.

Fine said in the study, however, that “because someone has committed only non-violent crimes in the past does not mean that he or she is not capable of using the illegally-obtained firearm to commit a violent crime”.

The review was the second in as many weeks by Fine that was critical of the ATF, which last year moved from the Treasury Department to the Justice Department. A review last week said the ATF was unable to meet its own annual goals for checking that the nationÂ’s gun dealers complied with federal gun laws.
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Offline FWiedner

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2004, 11:02:03 AM »
Quote
Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Sounds like 7,000 more Americans exercising their RIGHTS to me.

 :-)
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Dali Llama

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2004, 04:28:08 PM »
Quote from: FWiedner
Quote
Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Sounds like 7,000 more Americans exercising their RIGHTS to me.

 :-)

"Examples include a man who had stolen a pig in 1941, a person convicted of cheque forgery in 1959 and someone with an attempted burglary conviction dating to 1963."

Do FWiedner believe these persons should be able to purchase firearms, ask Dali Llama?
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Offline FWiedner

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2004, 04:31:31 AM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: FWiedner
Quote
Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Sounds like 7,000 more Americans exercising their RIGHTS to me.

 :-)

"Examples include a man who had stolen a pig in 1941, a person convicted of cheque forgery in 1959 and someone with an attempted burglary conviction dating to 1963."

Do FWiedner believe these persons should be able to purchase firearms, ask Dali Llama?



Yes.

 :shock:
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Major

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2004, 07:58:28 AM »
Why don't people understand what "shall not be infringed" means?
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Offline Big Hext Finnigan

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2004, 08:16:15 AM »
Howdy,

I have to say I get a bit confused about the whole prison/rehabilitation/punishment issue.

If a man has "paid his debt," then why is he not returned to the full status of a citizen?  If he is not rehabilitated or his crime continues on, then why is he allowed to freely mingle with the rest of society?  This bit of inconsistency has bothered me for some time.

Adios,
But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.  - Edmund Burke

Offline NYH1

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2004, 08:18:23 AM »
Quote from: Major
Why don't people understand what "shall not be infringed" means?

Major, I agree with that to an extent. I don't think that felon's especially violent ones should be aloud to have gun's or even vote. It's my personal opinion that felon's are second class citizens, if that! Thats just my opinion, and I understand perfectly and agree that opinion are like *ssholes every get one! :grin:
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Offline Bikenut

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2004, 05:22:04 AM »
New York Hunter? I greatly respect your opinion.

Big Hext Finnigan? I also am confused by the inconsistency of "justice".

To my admittedly not the brightest mind... if a person is such a menace to others that they must be controlled, why are they not kept in prison for life?

And gun rights have nothing to do with a persons criminal actions. Gun rights are ... or are supposed to be.... something that is totally impossible for anyone to take away for any reason, so sayeth the Constitution. As for dangerous people having guns? Please see above concerning keeping dangerous people in prison and out of society.

Actually, a dangerous person who is in prison can still have their gun rights.... however, I doubt very much if the prisons will open gun shops making the prisoner's gun rights a moot point.
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Offline Dali Llama

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2004, 07:34:22 AM »
Quote from: New York Hunter
I don't think that felon's especially violent ones should be aloud to have gun's or even vote. It's my personal opinion that felon's are second class citizens, if that!
Dali Llama say he concur with New York Hunter. :-)
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Offline Robert

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Statute of Limitations????
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2004, 10:44:15 AM »
You would think it would apply with any non-violent crimes.  You would be very very amazed at the silly stuff that some states label a person felon for...and refuse to expunge.  New Jersey possibly being the worst offender....It is certainly a Felony for being  Young and Stupid in New Jersey.
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Offline les hemby

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2004, 01:26:57 PM »
BikeNut i almost agree. If a person cant fit into society i dont feel society ought to have to support them until they die. If a dog is rabid we extinguish it (for a lack of better word) and people that harm kids or have 2 or 3 life sentences should be done the same way. It would save tax payers money and stop a whole lot of stuff. I live in dallas area, about 3 weeks ago a man beat a 3yr old baby to death. I have a 3yr old son, when i heard of this all i could think (right or wrong) is if that was my kid i would pray to god he found a loophole to get out, because there is nothing in our justice system right now that would be enough for me. sad thing is he probably wont spend 5yrs in jail then it will be parole. I can be kinda cold hearted when its adults, but you just dont mess with dogs or kids. I know there is people that will say if we do that we are as bad as they are. I guess i can live with that :roll:

Offline les hemby

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2004, 01:38:21 PM »
i will also agee with Robert some stuff that is classified as a felony is obsurd. A buddy of mine is about 45 now. He got caught with a couple of joints when he was about 19, he has never been in any kind of trouble since yet he still has this above him.

Offline Dali Llama

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2004, 01:56:28 PM »
Quote from: TM7
basically if someone plots or acts to take my rights away, than they loose some of their rights for their indiscretions, imo.

Dali Llama say he concur wholeheartedly.
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Offline les hemby

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2004, 02:16:06 PM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: TM7
basically if someone plots or acts to take my rights away, than they loose some of their rights for their indiscretions, imo.

Dali Llama say he concur wholeheartedly.
  yes sir

Offline FWiedner

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2004, 03:30:04 PM »
The punishment should fit the crime.

i.e., Pedophiles shouldn't be around children, arsonist shouldn't have matches, drunk drivers shouldn't be able to drive.  Only those who have exhibited that they are totally unable or unwilling to own or use a firearm, or an arm of any other type, in a manner that doesn't endanger others or violate someone else's rights should be subjected to any restriction on their right to bear arms.

People who have not ever misused a gun, even if they have been convicted of a felony crime should not be deprived of gun rights just because of having commited a felony.  

As far as continuing to punish those who may have commited a felony wherein the mis-use of a gun was a factor, if they are deemed fit (safe) to rejoin society, would not a continuing and limited probationary period be more appropriate than simply denying a possibly reformed person of their rights?  If they violate that probation, send them back to jail.

Dangerous criminals should not ever leave the place where they may be incarcerated, and I am not suggesting that prisoners serving sentences should have access to firearms.

It's not a case of denying them their 2nd Amendment rights, but simply insisting that the individual demonstrate a clear understanding of, and a capacity to not endanger the public or violate other people's rights.
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline powderman

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2004, 04:02:46 PM »
FWEIDNER. I mostly agree with you on this, punishment should fit the crime. I know people who did some incredibly STOOOOOOPID things as young people and have lead squeaky clean lives ever since. They should not be denied the right to defend themselves for the rest of their lives for being stupid once. POWDERMAN.  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)
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What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
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Offline Bikenut

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2004, 05:38:53 PM »
7000 people bought guns illegally......... there was a total of 17,000,000 gun sales..........

That works out to .0004% illegal gun sales......... (check my math).

Kinda puts that into perspective doesn't it?

Seems to me what is going on is just some more media extreme shock coverage of a minor problem. Especially since the ATF recovered darn near all of the guns that were illegally sold making that .0004% almost negligable. Just more horse manure in my opinion.
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Offline Dali Llama

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2004, 07:57:19 AM »
Quote from: powderman
FWEIDNER. I mostly agree with you on this, punishment should fit the crime. I know people who did some incredibly STOOOOOOPID things as young people and have lead squeaky clean lives ever since. They should not be denied the right to defend themselves for the rest of their lives for being stupid once.
Dali Llama suggest that powderman view it not as "denying them the right to defend themselves," but as denying them rights to which they are no longer entitled subsequent to violation of laws which govern our society.
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Offline Dali Llama

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2004, 08:00:34 AM »
Quote from: FWiedner
People who have not ever misused a gun, even if they have been convicted of a felony crime should not be deprived of gun rights just because of having commited a felony.
Do FWiedner thus be saying that person who wantonly rape women should have gun rights, ask Dali Llama?
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Offline FWiedner

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2004, 08:27:21 AM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: FWiedner
People who have not ever misused a gun, even if they have been convicted of a felony crime should not be deprived of gun rights just because of having commited a felony.
Do FWiedner thus be saying that person who wantonly rape women should have gun rights, ask Dali Llama?


Unless a gun was misused as a tool in the commission of the crime, what has one thing got to do with the other?

Sounds like a more fitting punishment would be to deprive the individual of the source of his libido and the intimate company of women.
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Bikenut

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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2004, 09:59:56 AM »
With respect to everyone who has the opinion that felons should be denied gun rights.............

It isn't the gun that committed the crime but the person...

Current anti-gun sentiment would have everyone believe that banning guns (denying gun rights to even a certain group is still banning guns) would stop criminals from committing crimes. As gun owners we all know that to be bull crap... so why is it any different when talking about felons?

It's very simple really. People consider felons... actually criminals of any kind... as second class citizens, not equal to the special more elite law abiding citizens. Ok.... but how about we punish the criminal with punishment that fits the crime and leave the tools they used out of the equation?

Like it or not.... anti-gun sentiment against criminals is the very same anti-gun sentiment that wants to ban guns completely. It just feels ok because it is directed against "second class" citizens. If a person thinks about this to it's logical end.... anti-gun people consider themselves to be the "law abiding elite" and gun owners to be, at the very least, potential criminals... hence, for them, it feels ok to ban guns completely because it is directed against us gun owning "second class" citizens.

Gun control of any kind, in any amount, for any reason........ is still GUN CONTROL.

Why in the world don't we have CRIMINAL CONTROL?
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Offline Dali Llama

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2004, 12:38:36 PM »
Quote from: FWiedner
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: FWiedner
People who have not ever misused a gun, even if they have been convicted of a felony crime should not be deprived of gun rights just because of having commited a felony.
Do FWiedner thus be saying that person who wantonly rape women should have gun rights, ask Dali Llama?


Unless a gun was misused as a tool in the commission of the crime, what has one thing got to do with the other?

Dali Llama ask would FWiedner thus argue for allowing rapist unfettered access to a tool which rapist may then employ to force innocent victim to aquiesce to rapist's nefarious intentions?
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Offline FWiedner

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2004, 01:41:31 PM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: FWiedner
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: FWiedner
People who have not ever misused a gun, even if they have been convicted of a felony crime should not be deprived of gun rights just because of having commited a felony.
Do FWiedner thus be saying that person who wantonly rape women should have gun rights, ask Dali Llama?


Unless a gun was misused as a tool in the commission of the crime, what has one thing got to do with the other?

Dali Llama ask would FWiedner thus argue for allowing rapist unfettered access to a tool which rapist may then employ to force innocent victim to aquiesce to rapist's nefarious intentions?



Again, I must ask, what has one thing got to do with the other?

Following such logic, a person should be denied shoes to wear because they might walk to a place and commit a crime, or they should be deprived of books to read because they might formulate an unsavory idea.

If this person has never misused a particular instrument in such a way as to harm another person or to infringe on their rights, by what justifiable reason should it be denied?


 :?
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Dali Llama

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2004, 04:06:45 PM »
Quote from: FWiedner
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: FWiedner
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: FWiedner
People who have not ever misused a gun, even if they have been convicted of a felony crime should not be deprived of gun rights just because of having commited a felony.
Do FWiedner thus be saying that person who wantonly rape women should have gun rights, ask Dali Llama?


Unless a gun was misused as a tool in the commission of the crime, what has one thing got to do with the other?

Dali Llama ask would FWiedner thus argue for allowing rapist unfettered access to a tool which rapist may then employ to force innocent victim to aquiesce to rapist's nefarious intentions?



Again, I must ask, what has one thing got to do with the other?

Following such logic, a person should be denied shoes to wear because they might walk to a place and commit a crime, or they should be deprived of books to read because they might formulate an unsavory idea.

If this person has never misused a particular instrument in such a way as to harm another person or to infringe on their rights, by what justifiable reason should it be denied?


 :?
Dali Llama respond that he not aware of any situation in which shoe or book used to intimidate victim and force compliance with rape.  Dali say that person who commit reprehensible crime (e.g., rape) against society in which he reside should not only give up tools and rights which he misuse in commission of that particular crime, but many, if not all, other rights.  Dali curious if FWiedner think that nogoodnik who rob bank wearing mask and create impression that he have gun when he really not should only subsequently be denied right to wear mask???
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Offline FWiedner

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2004, 05:29:27 PM »
Quote from: DL
Dali Llama respond that he not aware of any situation in which shoe or book used to intimidate victim and force compliance with rape. Dali say that person who commit reprehensible crime (e.g., rape) against society in which he reside should not only give up tools and rights which he misuse in commission of that particular crime, but many, if not all, other rights. Dali curious if FWiedner think that nogoodnik who rob bank wearing mask and create impression that he have gun when he really not should only subsequently be denied right to wear mask???


Your previous comment did not stipulate that a gun might be used in the commission of the hypothetical crime of which you spoke.

I have made my position on that provision, misuse of a gun in the commission of a crime, clear.  At the point where a gun is misused to harm another person or to violate the rights of another, at that point the offending individuals possession and use of that particular arm should be evaluated.

And again I ask you, in reference to your subsequent robbery fantasy, what does creating the impression of having a gun during the commission of a crime have to do with actually having a gun during the commission of a crime?

You are suggesting that an individuals 2nd Amendment right should be infringed because he has a banana in his pocket.

Fear is a valuable tool for use in some survival situations, but outside of that application, fear is a poor basis for making reasoned decisions.

One persons fear of guns does not negate anothers right to own or carry one.

A person robbing a bank is depriving other people of their property, endangering peoples lives, and infringing their liberty.

At that point, the person guilty of such a violation should be denied access to other peoples property, prevented from further endangering his fellow citizens, and further prevented from ever again interfering in the freedom of movement and association of his fellow citizens.

If that involves denying or preventing the person from wearing a mask, so be it.  He will have demonstrated to some significant degree, an inability to wear and or use one responsibly.
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Hooker

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2004, 08:45:35 PM »
If a felon after serving his or her time can only reach the status of a second class citizen, Where is the incentive to become a productive member of society. If they have not paid their dept to society then why are they not still in prison. This sounds like goverment sponsered class division.
And before any of you think I'm soft on criminals. Let me say if a criminal has to serve more than 20 yrs I think the death penalty should be automatic. But sentences should be realistic, and every offence should have a set price to be paid. And while in prison the only right, one should have is to be treated humanly.
Once released all rights as an American citizen should be restored.

Pat
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Offline Dali Llama

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2004, 02:11:33 AM »
Quote from: FWiedner
Quote from: DL
Dali Llama respond that he not aware of any situation in which shoe or book used to intimidate victim and force compliance with rape. Dali say that person who commit reprehensible crime (e.g., rape) against society in which he reside should not only give up tools and rights which he misuse in commission of that particular crime, but many, if not all, other rights. Dali curious if FWiedner think that nogoodnik who rob bank wearing mask and create impression that he have gun when he really not should only subsequently be denied right to wear mask???


And again I ask you, in reference to your subsequent robbery fantasy, what does creating the impression of having a gun during the commission of a crime have to do with actually having a gun during the commission of a crime?

Dali Llama say he not recall such question being posed previously. :?   Dali say that there be no relationship between the two.  Dali say his analogy be attempt to express that it not matter whether weapoon be used or not in hypothetical bank robbery.  Dali say that whether actual gun be present or absent during commission of a felony, person who perpetrate same should be deprived of most, if not all, other rights.
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2004, 01:19:30 AM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: FWiedner
Quote from: DL
Dali Llama respond that he not aware of any situation in which shoe or book used to intimidate victim and force compliance with rape. Dali say that person who commit reprehensible crime (e.g., rape) against society in which he reside should not only give up tools and rights which he misuse in commission of that particular crime, but many, if not all, other rights. Dali curious if FWiedner think that nogoodnik who rob bank wearing mask and create impression that he have gun when he really not should only subsequently be denied right to wear mask???


And again I ask you, in reference to your subsequent robbery fantasy, what does creating the impression of having a gun during the commission of a crime have to do with actually having a gun during the commission of a crime?

Dali Llama say he not recall such question being posed previously. :?   Dali say that there be no relationship between the two.  Dali say his analogy be attempt to express that it not matter whether weapoon be used or not in hypothetical bank robbery.  Dali say that whether actual gun be present or absent during commission of a felony, person who perpetrate same should be deprived of most, if not all, other rights.
btt for FWiedner
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Offline Big Hext Finnigan

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7,000-plus Americans bought weapons illegal
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2004, 01:40:12 AM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: FWiedner
Quote from: DL
Dali Llama respond that he not aware of any situation in which shoe or book used to intimidate victim and force compliance with rape. Dali say that person who commit reprehensible crime (e.g., rape) against society in which he reside should not only give up tools and rights which he misuse in commission of that particular crime, but many, if not all, other rights. Dali curious if FWiedner think that nogoodnik who rob bank wearing mask and create impression that he have gun when he really not should only subsequently be denied right to wear mask???


And again I ask you, in reference to your subsequent robbery fantasy, what does creating the impression of having a gun during the commission of a crime have to do with actually having a gun during the commission of a crime?

Dali Llama say he not recall such question being posed previously. :?   Dali say that there be no relationship between the two.  Dali say his analogy be attempt to express that it not matter whether weapoon be used or not in hypothetical bank robbery.  Dali say that whether actual gun be present or absent during commission of a felony, person who perpetrate same should be deprived of most, if not all, other rights.
btt for FWiedner


You need to stop this type of posting.  It's bordering on trollish behavior.
No poster is obligated to respond.  Again I instruct you to take it to PM if you feel the need for more information.
But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.  - Edmund Burke