Questions on range results

[JBMauser]

Questions:  I have finally gotten out to the range to test out loads for my Danish rolling block.  My BP loads have improved but I have some questions.  I assembled 8 rounds with FFF Goex others with you know what.  I dropped 70 grains (by volume – I have a test tube like measure for my ML)  through a funnel with a 24 in. piece of golf club shaft for a drop tube.  It fairly well filled the case.  I put in a unlubed disk of plastic coffee can lid and then used a 38 special shell that I marked off a fat 1/8 in. reference and using my bench vise with the 38 case as a ram, compressed the powder 1/8 in.  I seated my lee 405 gr hb bullet with my home made crisco, beeswax lube in the flared neck case and seated it to the plastic wad.  Speeds were very close except for the last two which is my first question.  The last two jumped 100 fps.  I assume this is from fouling???  My second question is why my second shot almost backed the primer completely out.  All others were ok.    
Data – all in FPS – 1326, 1333 (Primer near out) 1324, 1331, 1301, 1322, 1342, 1434,1443.  Shots 7 and 8 were slight flyers and opened the group.  First 6 shots grouped in a narrow band 2in. tall and 4in. wide.  Shot at 50 yards.  I have to work on these crude sights as well as my loads.  I just realized I used regular rifle primers.  I should have used magnum pistol primers.   I did not clean the bore nor blow down the bore for these shots.  My last question is this.  Should I fill the bullet base with something? lube with a wax paper seal or a filler? COW or something?  Thanks for any and all comments.  JB

[JBMauser]

I have a follow up question.  If I can tighten up my stuff so to speak,  Do any of you think this Dane could shoot in a match or sillouette without a tang peep sight?  It has a crude and wobbly slider (ladder?) rear sight. JB

[Ray Newman]

I think more information is needed in order to be of any real help:

BULLETS:

What the lead alloy & bullet diameter?

How did the bullet diameter compare to the bore diameter?

What was the diameter of the plastic wads?

How did you seat the bullet?

Did you crimp the bullet in place?

Did you seat the bullets to touch the rifling or were they backed off?

If they touched the rifling, were the bullet seated way out?

I have never utilized a hollow based bullet. I have never seen or heard a successful/competitive BPCR  LR, paper target, or silhouette shooter claim success w/ a hollow based bullet. Not saying it can’t happen; just saying I haven’t seen or heard of it.

It could very well be that the pressure from the FFG powder forced the wad up in the base of the bullet. Or if the wad diameter was too small, gas blew by the wad. A hollow based bullet is tricky to shoot. Like a Minie ball, you need enough powder to get it going, but too much powder will cause the skirt to blow out when it leaves the muzzle, & as a result accuracy will suffer.

RIFLE/ACTION:

I do believe that a primer backing out is a sign of excess pressure; or it could be a loose primer pocket.

When the action is closed/fired, is it possible to move the block to rear? On a RB pattern rifle, everything should lock up tight w/o any play. Wear on the 2 action pins is very detrimental to accuracy. It can also be dangerous.

Are there any tight or loose spots in the barrel?

After shooting did you notice a lube ring or lube star @ the muzzle?

Has the rifle been re-barreled or re-bored?

Is it a full length military stock w/ a ramrod? If so you may have to loosen/tighten the barrel bands & remove the ramrod while shooting


POWDER:

How did you decide that 1/8” was the right am’t of compression?

What makes you think that magnum pistol primers would have been better? It really doesn’t take much to fire BP & a hot primer can/will move the bullet forward before a completed powder burn. Primers are a critical element & you‘ll need to experiment! Many shooters have reported success w/ a LR primer.

Did you record the standard deviation (SD)? When properly loaded, BP has very low a SD

BRASS:

New brass?

Full length resized or what?

Same OAL?


Can you shoot @ distance longer than 50 yds? It’s a BPCR Axiom that a Shooter will not really learn much ‘bout the  load by in-close shooting.

Based on your description of the sights--crude & wobbly--I doubt if the  barrel sights will suffice for silhouettes. Rifle sights must be repeatable & hold their settings as well as provide a clear sight picture….

[JBMauser]

Thanks for the comments and questions

Bullets – mixed metal – lead and wheel weights.  I don’t have a # but a bit softer than WW.

The wads were cut with a punch.  They are not perfect but they fit the case neck .462.  The bullet base is .462  .

I neck size the case with a lee loader in 45/70  I flare the mouth and start the bullet into the case with the lee loader at the last I push the case up into the lee loader to press the flare out.  No crimp to speak of.    

I have not slugged the barrel. I went with Nonte’s recommendation in Cartridge conversions.  He advised a bullet of .455  at 1345 fps.  My bullets are a tad fat but the speed was spot on!  It appears that this rifle had been reamed for 45/70 Length and rim by the importer.

I seated the bullet to the compressed powder and wad.  I did not play with the length with BP .  I did with others and those with shallow seating did better.  For BP I went for no air space with the correct powder load.

As for the 1/8 inch.  I read somewhere that the BP should have some compression  1/8 to 1/4 for best burn.  I thought as long as the powder column had had some crunch applied to it best burn would occur.  

The brass was new WW.  Same length, neck sized with lee loader.  Brass is now well ballooned for the generous Dane chamber.  I have notched all my brass as of this last outing so all will be chambered to a reference.  Lost two this outing to burst sides not with BP (2400)

I did not notice a lube star on the muzzle but I did have to wipe off the end of the cleaning rod as it works it’s way out over recoil.  Good and greasy.  No the rifle has not been rebarreled.  And it was fired with the rod in place.  Full length stock with 2 barrel bands and as stated, rod in place.

Primers, I have read at various BPCR sites that magnum primers are best for BP and an alternative is to drill open the primer hole to adjust for the weaker modern primers vs the hotter fulminate primers of the BP period.

Action seems tight and locks up well.  I was surprised to see that raised primer.

I will slug the barrel.  Perhaps I can size these big pills down to .4575 and see how they fly.  

Thanks for your probing.  I can use it.  JB

[The Shrink]

JB

I agree with what Ray said, you have many more variables to control.  You will need very good records to tease out the effects of one verses the other.

Three things I can say from what you've said so far.  

With the light 405gr. bullet you are very likely to need a heavy crimp to hold the bullet in the case while the powder combusts.  With the heavier 500 gr. bullet this is unnecessary and the inertia of the bullet sufficies.  This came out of the US Army exhaustive tests of the 45-70 in the 1870's -1880's.  

Your sights will not be adequate.  They do not have adequate lateral movement nor are they reliably repeatable.  

You are putting excessive strain on those 45-70 cases, as your experience with smokeless demonstrates.  You would do better getting Danish brass from Buffalo Arms or another vendor.  

I would guess that this strain on the brass is the reason for the loose primer.  Were those new cases, or did a previously used case, used with smokeless, get mixed in?  

Frequently the bullet from these cannons will not stabilize until it's gone 50-150 yards.  Your accuracy @50 yeads is relatively meaningless other than to register your sights

Wayne the Shrink

There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

[JBMauser]

Wayne, good info.  I will repeat my efforts at longer range.  The brass was new in this case.  Now that they are formed and stressed they should settle down so to speak.  Do you think I need to segragate my brass from smoke and smokeless?  I had in the past but was planning on combining to one lot now that I have reference notches cut in all rims.  Do you have any thoughts on filling the hollow base?  JB

[Ray Newman]

I read your response this morning & it set off the waving of a number of red flags.

Where did you purchase rifle? If from a private party, did they have any load data? If from an importer, I’d call them & ask ‘bout load data.

First of all, it is a shame that the rifle chamber was re-cut to accept .45-70 brass, esp. since Buffalo Arms (www.buffalo arms.com) has the original brass. This may be problematic.

The below link confirmed something that I had suspected.

There were 2 Danish calibers: the 11.7X51R & the 11.7X56R, for the Danish RB. Which is yours?  

I found this out by a Google search utilizing “Danish Rolling Block”. There were numerous hits & going thru them might help. Playing w/ the search wording would yields more & different results. In any case, it‘s worth a try….

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Denmark/DanshRem.htm

Might be time for a chamber cast to determine exactly what dimensions we are dealing w/.

Here’s what I found from “Cartridges of the World”  (Barnes) & “The Handloaders Guide to Cartridge Conversions” (Donnelly):

11.7x5IR
Rim Dia .579
Head Dia .514
Brass OAL 2.01

11.7X56R
Rim Dia .580
Head Dia .513
Brass OAL 2.20

45-70
Rim Dia .608
Head Dia .505
Brass OAL 2.10

I was unable to determine the original bullet--paper patch or grease groove. If paper patch, it may have a long chamber to facilitate loading those type if rounds in a fouled chamber.

I think you are going to have some problems getting his rifle to shoot & primarily because the chamber was -re-cut & the brass will need to expand/fit the chamber.

From what I have been able to determine from “Cartridges of the World“, the Remington factory load was 50g of Fg w/ a 380 grn bullet of approx. 455” dia.

The only way to verify this is to slug the bore. I would start w/ that load & bullet & fill the void between the bullet & the base w/  wads of the proper dia., a la Trapdoor .45-55 carbine load.

The pre-determined barrel twist  & bore for the lighter & smaller dia bullet. will probably impede a heavy bullet’s accuracy.

If the bore dia is .455, there is no way that you are going to utilize a .462” dia. bullet, either HB or any solid base, to obtain any reasonable accuracy.

The large diameter bullet will be distorted by the by the smaller bore size. Probably, the .462 bullet will have/had a great deal of lead fins attached to its base when it exits the muzzle. Firing such a large bullet will also increase pressure & lead to premature case failure or problems the primer backing out.

I doubt if you will be able to size the .462” dia HB or flat based bullet of that large a dia. down to fit the bore dia.

You are going to need a smaller dia. bullet  (.457” dia .45 cal bullet?) & size it or obtain a mould casting a bullet of the proper dia. I am really skeptical that a HB bullet will work.

From what I gather from your response, you are utilizing one of the original style Lee Loaders to reload?

(http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1092242427.2899=/html/catalog/dies-p4.html#LeeLoader)

Do you have access to a press & .45-70 dies? You’ll need to have more control over the process than what I think the Lee Loader Kit will allow.

The am’t. of compression is just one of those many variable that relate to the powder charge & granulation & cartridge OAL.

A word on crimping. The roll type crimp is to be avoided as it will distort the bullet even more.  A gentle taper crimp or using case neck tension to hold the bullet in place (& possibly up against the rifling) is best.

[JBMauser]

Ray, thanks for all good data.  I did not recall two Danish versions.  I do remember thinking I had a tough time remembering the cal when I was doing research on the net.  You solved that,  two specs.  I need to do a chamber cast.  I assumed (yes I know...) that it was one of the many reamed for 45/70 as it accepts their rim and I did not have to trim them down to fit the original Danish spec.  I can not use reular 45/70 dies as I can't decrease the formed cases bulge.  I went on line and asked what was the opening at the mouth of those dies and it was way to small for my stretched cases.  As it is the lee loader die buffs the belly so to speak but does not reduce it.  I do not know what the chamber looks like but I can tell you that a fired case can swallow one of those unsized 462 bullets with no neck tension at all.  That would indicate a very generous mouth. I will slug the barrel and report later.  The load data I have came from Nonte and both loads performed as published.  The 4759 load produced less speed than published.  Unique loads are very promising.  Overall my smokeless loads out perform my BP loads but That is part of my quest to get  BP to perform.  Thanks again all for the probing  JB[/img][/b]

[The Shrink]

Once you have a chamber cast both RCBS and Redding will make you a set of dies dimensioned to that chamber cast if you need tham.  

Wayne the Shrink

There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

[dlemaster]

JBMauser
When you asked for the diameter at the die mouth did you specify a set of neck sizing dies? The Lee Loader is neck sizing only and that is proably why it only "buffs the belly so to speak".
I think the other advice given to you here is right on the money.
You need to know your exact bore size and a chamber cast.
I'm sure that with a little work you will be able to get that rifle to shoot much better than you have at this point.
Let us know how it goes.
Regards, Dave