Author Topic: Paper patching machine in 1880  (Read 3516 times)

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Offline JCP

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« on: July 30, 2004, 09:14:24 AM »
Just thought this would be of interest. In paul matthews book, The Paper Jacket, on page 7,last paragraph it says ( to the best of my knowledge paper patches were always applied by hand) , as we all know there isn't very much info floating around about how they used to do this. The other day I was reading a book that I bought form Lindsay publications, lindsaybks.com a few years ago , I ran across a few lines which goes like this. On page 76 paragraph 2 (The next operation is bullet-patching, or covering the rifle bullets with paper, to prevent the clogging of the grooves of the barrel with lead. This is sometimes done by hand, sometimes by machinery. In the bullet-pathching machine the bullet are fed to the machine by hand, and the patch is presented to the bullet and secured by a minute drop of mucilage, fed automatically, and is rolled closely around the bullet, and the end is folded up by the fricton of flexible rolls, 45 or 50 bullets being patched in a minute, and, including stoppages, full 20,000 in ten hours. Two attendants are required.) The name of the book is, Fire-Arms Manufacture 1880. The book was done by the U.S. Dept of Interion Census Office. Published in 1883.
The interesting thing to me is, and I ask anyone who would know, If the patch was secured with a drop of mucilage, wouldn't the paper have to be put on dry. Gives me something new to try :grin: . I wouldn't glue the patch to the bullet , but might try just a drop at the tail end of patch, What do yall think.

Offline rdnck

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Applying paper patches
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2004, 11:20:50 AM »
JCP--I load a lot of paper patched bullets, especially for my 14 1/2 pound Shiloh Sharps 45-110.  I always apply the patches dry, without any glue or moisture.  I have the cases ready to accept the bullet, roll the patch on the bullet, and seat the bullet by hand into the case.  No drying time, no waiting, just load and shoot.

This big Sharps is the Real Deal with paper patched bullets, and shoots them extremely well with 106.5 grains of Goex 1f.  Shoot straight, rdnck.

Offline Redhawk1

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2004, 11:26:46 AM »
I use saliva to moisten my patches. I only patch what I need for shooting. If not, I have to drink a lot of water to keep my mouth moist. Dries quick and shoot well. :grin:
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Offline JCP

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2004, 01:45:54 PM »
I'm going to load some for my 45/70 rolling block tonite, i'll give it a try. can you twist a tail on them dry also?

Offline rdnck

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Dry patches
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2004, 03:56:10 AM »
JCP--You can twist the tail if they are dry.  They shoot a lot better if they don't have a tail.  Shoot straight, rdnck.

Offline 45 2.1

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2004, 08:04:57 AM »
rdnck-
 Would you post the specifics of your dry patch procedure for us. Are you using a Chase style patch with no base cover?

Offline rdnck

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Patching dry
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2004, 01:28:36 PM »
45 2.1--  I use the trapezoid shaped patch, two wraps around the bullet.  I have never had real good luck with a hollow base bullet.  I have tried them--oh, how I tried them--but was never able to make paper patching work without fliers until I went to a flat based bullet, and applied the patch with no tail.  

My patches are cut so that when they are put on the bullet, the ends just barely meet with no overlap, and the bottom of the patch extends just past the bottom edge of the base of the bullet.  When I twist the patch in place over the bottom of the bullet, there is approximately a 1/8 inch diameter circle where you can see the base of the bullet.  In other words, the patch does not completely cover the bullet base, and there is no tail to tuck anywhere, or to cut off.

The patches are applied dry, in the following manner.  I take a dry patch and put it between my lips and JUST BARELY moisten about 1/8 of an inch of the sharp point of the patch.  Don't use your tongue, and don't get it wet enough to see or feel it.  If you do, the point will tear off when you roll the bullet. I lay the patch so that the long point of the trapezoid shape I have just placed between my lips  is on the bottom left, pointing toward me.  I place the bullet with its point facing left about 1/4 inch from the bottom of the patch.  I then take my left thand and roll the point up and over the bullet, and hold my finger on the point of the patch as I roll the bullet away from me with my left hand while I use my right hand to hold the other end of the patch tight by applying slight pressure pushing the patch away from me.  The very slight moistening allows the paper to bend and the tip end of the patch to stay in place until the wrap causes the patch itself to hold the point in place.  As the roll is completed, I grasp the bullet with my left hand and use the thumb and first finger of my right hand to twist and fold the patch into place over the bullet base.  You have to hold it tight to keep the patch from coming loose.

At this point, I take a charged case in my left hand, and bring it into contact with the bullet base where the seam of the patch meets--the bullet and case mouth meet at about a 45 degree angle.  The bullet and case are twisted together  as they are brought into alignment and the patch is tightened further as the bullet is put into the case with a twisting, downward motion.  You CANNOT take a patched bullet and shove it straight down into the case without tearing the patch.  You've gotta come in from an angle.

It's easier and quicker to do than explain, and patches put on this way will stay put, and the bullets will stay in the cartridge case when carried in a cartridge belt.

Hope this helps, shoot straight, rdnck.

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Offline JCP

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2004, 03:24:23 PM »
rdnck, what size expander ball do you use compared to the patched bullet? It would have to be larger than mine, I can feel guiet a bit of pressure when I seat it in my press.

Offline Redhawk1

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2004, 04:28:46 PM »
Quote from: JCP
rdnck, what size expander ball do you use compared to the patched bullet? It would have to be larger than mine, I can feel guiet a bit of pressure when I seat it in my press.


I know you ask rdnek the question, but I thought I may be of some help.

If you feel pressure when you seat it in your press, you must be resizing your cases for reloading. When I shoot my 45-70 with black powder loads, I use a universal decapper to remove spent primer. I do not want the case resized. It is call fire formed. You will not have to use your expander die.

(Reloading procedure for paper patch with fire formed brass)
I clean my brass in soapy water after I shoot, and let them air dry and  then tumble. Then I decap my brass with a universal decapper. (Do not use your sizing die). I then install a new primer after I clean out the primer pocket. I load my black powder through a 30 inch drop tube, install a wad and compress to desired depth. I then install a grease cookie and a wad on top of the grease cookie and push it down on the powder charge and wad. I then hand seat the paper patch bullet. (No Seating die Needed). I then run the finished case in a resizing die with the decapping pin removed, just enough to put a little tension on the bullet. I can still move the bullet with very little force. To much tension and you will rip the paper on firing and loose your accuracy and or get lead fouling in you barrel. If you need any further help please let me know.  :D
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Offline rdnck

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Neck fit
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2004, 04:30:56 PM »
JCP--I use a standard RCBS expander plug.  I full length size the cases, then run the expander ball down in the case about !/4 of an inch.  This lets you start the .450 diameter patched bullet with your fingers, then the case grips the bullet further on down. You should not have to use a press to seat your bullets.  The bullet diameter should be .435 to .440 before patching, and .450 after patching.  If you were unfortunate enough to buy a .450 bullet mold, there is no way you can patch bullets from it and get it to work properly with black powder.  It is simply too big.

The bullet should be BORE not groove diameter after patching.  Get everything to fit right, get the load balanced, and you won't believe how well it will shoot.  Try to load it too tight, and you won't believe how much frustration you will have.  

Another thing.  If you are trying to shoot paper patched bullets in a 45-70, you need to shoot a bullet that is 1 1/16 inch long.  It will weigh 420 grains.  The longer, heavier bullets take up too much space inside the short 45-70 case and don't leave enough room for sufficient powder to generate enough pressure so that the bullet will upset properly and seal the bore.  I fought the 45-70 and paper patch for years until I duplicated the length and weight of the original Sharps factory loading in paper patch.  When I loaded the shorter, lighter bullet, the rifle came alive and shot like it was supposed to.  A 45-70 is called a 45-70 because it shoots 70 grains of powder.  Works for me.  Shoot straight, rdnck.

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Offline Redhawk1

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2004, 04:44:55 PM »
rdnck, I use .450 straight paper patch bullets, which turns out to .458 after patching. I have been reloading 500 to 550 gr. paper patch bullets in my 45-70. I use 60 gr. of Goex by volume. It takes about .400 of compression to leave enough room to fit the two .030 wads and a .125 grease cookie. I am sitting .010 off the lands and grove. This load is very accurate in my Shiloh Sharps and has taken 2 deer, with compleat pass through. Plenty of knock down power. It is not required to shoot only 70 gr. of black powder in a 45-70. Now when I load for grease grove bullets I have plenty of room for 70 gr. of black powder and 500 to 550 gr. grease grove bullets.

My 45-70 Shiloh Sharps does not like the lighter 400 gr. bullets. I cannot get good accuracy with them. The 500 to 550 work best in my gun and my buddies Shiloh Sharps.  :D
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Offline JCP

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2004, 05:14:46 PM »
Thanks for the info guys, you've given me a lot of new stuff to try. I shoot smokeless so far, looks like I might have to try black sooner or later.

Offline rdnck

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Paper Patching
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2004, 05:20:51 PM »
Redhawk--There are several ways to go about it, but here's the bottom line.  I am sure you have an accurate load with 60 grains of Goex.  I know that 1060 fps and a 500 grain bullet will shoot through a buffalo at 100 yards in some cases.  A friend of mine has done it.  I also have no doubt that you have shot completely through two deer with your load.  Deer are not really that hard to shoot through.  If you are shooting 60 grains of Goex and a paper patch bullet, your velocity is in the 1060 to 1080 fps range.  THAT means that you have a rifle with a performance level that is significantly less than the original rifles used on the plains.  The fact that you have to seat your bullets 1/16 off of the rifling to get them to chamber also tells me that your gun won't deliver an extended string of shots without wiping.  

You are shooting a paper patch load, true.  But loading it the way you do means that your rifle is having to perform with one hand tied behind its back, so to speak.  Just remember, they really don't call them 45-70's until they are loaded with 70 grains of powder.  In reality, you are shooting a 45-60.  rdnck

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Offline Redhawk1

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2004, 05:25:22 PM »
Quote from: JCP
Thanks for the info guys, you've given me a lot of new stuff to try. I shoot smokeless so far, looks like I might have to try black sooner or later.


If you decide to load black powder, it is a different animal. Not hard but more time consuming and I find a lot of math involved. I suggest you get the books called the paper jacket by Paul Mathews and Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West  by Mike Venturino and visit Buffalo Arms.  :D http://www.buffaloarms.com/
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Paper Patching
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2004, 06:12:35 PM »
Quote from: rdnck
Redhawk--There are several ways to go about it, but here's the bottom line.  I am sure you have an accurate load with 60 grains of Goex.  I know that 1060 fps and a 500 grain bullet will shoot through a buffalo at 100 yards in some cases.  A friend of mine has done it.  I also have no doubt that you have shot completely through two deer with your load.  Deer are not really that hard to shoot through.  If you are shooting 60 grains of Goex and a paper patch bullet, your velocity is in the 1060 to 1080 fps range.  THAT means that you have a rifle with a performance level that is significantly less than the original rifles used on the plains.  The fact that you have to seat your bullets 1/16 off of the rifling to get them to chamber also tells me that your gun won't deliver an extended string of shots without wiping.  

You are shooting a paper patch load, true.  But loading it the way you do means that your rifle is having to perform with one hand tied behind its back, so to speak.  Just remember, they really don't call them 45-70's until they are loaded with 70 grains of powder.  In reality, you are shooting a 45-60.  rdnck

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I have shot 10 shot strings without wiping, I can also load them out to the rifling and still chamber them. I could use tapered bullets and paper patch them to allow for 70 gr. of BP, but I am having great success with 60 gr. of BP. Why change? So I am shooting a 45-60 as you call it. But in Paul Mathews book the paper jacket, there are loads at 60 gr. for the 45-70 as well as 75 to 80 gr. loads for the 45-90 and 95 to 100 gr. for the 45-110. Look at Mike Venturinos book and you will find similar loads for the 45-70. 60 gr. of BP is not like a handicap or having one hand tied behind your back.  :roll: You are talking about 200 to 250 fps difference between 60 and 70 gr. A 550 gr. bullet at 1060 to 1080 fps has more energy then a 435 gr. bullet with 70 gr. of BP at around 1250 fps. So I guess I will just have to keep shooting my 45-60  :D  Delaware is a Shotgun only State, last year we finally go it passed to use Shiloh Sharps and Sharps replicas using BP and paper patch bullet, to use during shotgun deer season. But like I said it is only paper patch bullets. I would much prefer to shoot grease grove bullets. Then I could really shot a 45-70. LOL  :)
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Offline 45 2.1

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2004, 02:10:27 AM »
Thanks rdnck-
 I wondered what way you did it, now I know. Your hole in the base can be created with a patch cutter with wet rolled PP also. There are a couple of makers. What alloy are you using also.
For those using larger diameters, you can size the case neck for a slip fit with some tension by using the LEE factory crimp die for the 45 Colt. It takes a .459" patched bullet with a little tension.

Offline rdnck

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Alloy
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2004, 02:44:18 AM »
45 2.1--I generally use 30-1 for paper patching, simply because that is what I use for my grease groove silhouette loads and that is what is in my pot.  I melt about 70 pounds at a time in a large pot using a propane burner.  We shoot a lot, and 30-1 seems to work well across the board.

For hunting, I often cast some pure lead paper patch bullets using my Waage electric pot, but haven't found that they are any more or less accurate or work any better on game  than the 30-1.  

I have a 14 1/2 pound Shiloh Number 3 Sporter in 45 2 7/8 that I have just started to use paper patch in, and it is giving exceptional accuracy with 30-1.  I will try harder bullets in it over the next few weeks to see what it does.  The old timers used a lot of 16-1 from the factory, and there was probably a good reason.  I don't know if I will be able to tell the difference as right now it is shooting a lot better than I am supposed to be able to see or hold.  Shoot straight, rdnck

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Offline HWooldridge

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2004, 05:05:54 PM »
Rdnck,

Do you use any lube, dry or otherwise, on the paper patch?  I have been losing patches stripped off in the barrel and applied some graphite to the last ones I loaded but have not shot them yet.

Offline rdnck

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Lube on the patch
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2004, 06:15:54 PM »
HWooldridge--I don't use any lube on the patch.  I know some say they do, but I never have.  If you are stripping the patch in the barrel, I suspect that you either have too tight a bullet to barrel fit, or you have hard fouling that tears the patch.  I am speaking of black powder, as that is all that I shoot.  Shoot straight, rdnck.

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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Lube on the patch
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2004, 01:48:56 AM »
Quote from: rdnck
HWooldridge--I don't use any lube on the patch.  I know some say they do, but I never have.  If you are stripping the patch in the barrel, I suspect that you either have too tight a bullet to barrel fit, or you have hard fouling that tears the patch.  I am speaking of black powder, as that is all that I shoot.  Shoot straight, rdnck.

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rdnck, I have been using SPG lube on the paper, before I load the bullet. Are you using a grease cookie?

I will have to try your method of no lube. Just to see if it will save me a step in the reloading process. I also only use black powder in my Shiloh Sharps 45-70. :grin:
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Offline rdnck

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Grease cookie
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2004, 02:18:20 AM »
Redhawk 1--I use a grease cookie that is .200 thick.  The lube is Black Magic.  I have tried lubed patches, but they don't seem to separate from the bullet as quickly as do the dry ones.  I have simply gotten better accuracy with the dry patches.  Shoot straight, rdnck.

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Re: Grease cookie
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2004, 02:34:35 AM »
Quote from: rdnck
Redhawk 1--I use a grease cookie that is .200 thick.  The lube is Black Magic.  I have tried lubed patches, but they don't seem to separate from the bullet as quickly as do the dry ones.  I have simply gotten better accuracy with the dry patches.  Shoot straight, rdnck.

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I will definitely try dry patches. I get good accuracy with what I was doing, but it needs improvement.  I was not getting consistent groups.
Thanks for you input. :D
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Offline Lead pot

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2004, 12:18:46 PM »
JCP> rdnck method is good and sound the way he does it.
With the new modern barrels, few are cut with a tapered lanz (a true PP troth) to except a groove diameter bullet with out tearing the patch.If the patch gets torn, it just wont fly true.
I pretty much patch mine like rdnck except I like to wet my patch with just a little milk mixed in my water to make the patch hold better.About a tea spoon to a cup of water with the patch wrapped in the direction of the twist with the long tail at the base of the bullet folded under the base just enough to be able to seat it in the case no more than 1/8".
I cut my patch about 1/16" short so when you wrap the bullet you can stretch it to match the end perfect to the starting end for you can see it when the paper is wet,and when it dryes it will shrink to make a good looking patched bullet.I don't lube my patch I think the lube will hold the patch to long when it leaves the muzzle.
My patches will flutter in the air with in 10 ft or so.You want big pieces of the patch were you see the riffling marks on the paper,not small slivers of cut paper when you have the larger pieces with the riffling marks you are getting a proper patch that is doing it's job.
I load mine a little different,I like to breach seat my patched bullet,this is were the patched bullet really smiles.I try to patch my bullet about .001 or 2 larger then the bore, and breach seat it with a seating tool,This way it wont tear the patch even when it is .005 larger then the bore.
I get 73 grains of goex 2f in the .45-70 about the same in the .40-70 case compressed .280 with a wad cut from a frozen food container (about .023 thick) over the powder a 1/8"grease cookie cut with the case mouth and one or more  .030 fiber wads to the flush end of the case mouth and just roll a slight crimp over the top wad to hold it in place.
There is no air space between the base of the bullet and the case when I load.

By the way I swage my bullets with pure lead or 1-30 mix with cup or flat bases. Hollow base work good if you keep the powder charge mild and don't use a over the powder wad other then mabe 2 wax paper wads just to keep the Crisco that I put into the hollow base of the bullet for lube from getting into the powder.

rdnck---- some day I would like to come down your way and send a few down range with you I think it would be fun :wink:

Kurt
Dont go were the path leads,go were there is no path and leave a trail.

Offline Redhawk1

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2004, 02:06:44 PM »
Lead pot, What weight bullet do you use? I just loaded some 550 gr. pure lead paper patch bullets over 73.0 gr. of Goex FFg. After compression and wad and grease cookie, there is not much room for the bullet. They sure are long, but still chamber in my shiloh sharps.  :D
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Offline rdnck

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Sending some downrange
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2004, 03:40:31 AM »
Lead pot--That sounds like a good program to me.  I have a 504 yard range in my back yard.  The range IS my back yard, actually.  We definitely have a place to shoot.  If you are heading this way, give me a shout.  We are usually here.  Shoot straight, rdnck.

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Offline Lead pot

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Paper patching machine in 1880
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2004, 11:27:03 AM »
Redhawk

I shoot a 550 gr straight wall with a two caliber ogive patched to .453 diameter.And a 420 gr straight walled with a two caliber ogive patched to .403 for the .40-70.
I can swage up to a 750 gr that is 1.950" long for the .45 cal,but it gets a little squirly that long with the 18 twist.
I can get a .40 cal swaged to 1.850" long.

Kurt
Dont go were the path leads,go were there is no path and leave a trail.