Author Topic: single shot rifle for africa and dangerous game  (Read 1488 times)

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Offline fortress49

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single shot rifle for africa and dangerous game
« on: August 20, 2004, 10:09:09 AM »
Hello,

This is just a curiosity question since I do not plan on hunting Africa anytime soon.  (Gotta get the kids out of school and college first)

Would a single shot rifle such as the Ruger number one be OK to use for dangerous game?  It seems that the PH is always there for a backup "just in case".  How many times does the hunter actually have to use a quick second shot in order to protect "life and limb"?  Are multiple shots usually necessary?  

A second question concerns the Garrett 45/70 cartidges and the claims on their website along with the claims of Vince Lupo who went on safari in Africa using the Marlin 45/70.  Is this a viable cartidge for Africa hunting?Pro's con's?

Thanks for any info.

Matt

Offline JJHACK

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single shot rifle for africa and dangerous
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2004, 10:36:53 AM »
On average Buffalo are hit about 3 times. The bigger stuff is about the same. Leopards usually have one good shot and they are done. Lions usually at least two, the second is insurance much of the time. It's rarely for saving life and limb. It's usually to reduce tracking and insure you actually find that expensive trophy. One decent shot will kill any animal but we also expect to find them as well.  Finding an animal in the tall grass, thick bush, or swampy conditions is never easy or fun til it's over.  Multiple shots are always a benifit. You also don't often have a lot of time for that second shot.

the 45/70 is a fine plains game rifle. However it would not make my short list for dangerous game. I guess to put it simply the cost of a new rifle designed to get the job done is pennys compared to the cost of a full blown dangerous game safari. You can outfit yourself with a full custom 375HH shooting premium bullets with a high end scope for about 2000.00 bucks. That is only 1.75 days of daily fee for a dangerous game hunt, or to put it another way the minimum is 21 days in Tanzania for the big five. at 1300 bucks a day for the daily fee alone you will have over 27,000 in costs before you pull the trigger a single time. Add the trophy fees and your looking at 60K. The cost of a "REAL" hunting rifle becomes a no brainer.

If you choose to hunt on a Consession in Zim, RSA, Zambia, or Namiba for a few species of DG then you could use a 45/70 because they will have dogs helecopters and lots of people to help you locate anything wounded. In the Eastern Cape Canned hunts it's ok to hunt with anything you can dream up. Everything there is put and take or farm raised for hunters to kill. Most of the novelty hunts you see with handguns, archery, muzzleloaders, etc. are done in this area. The viewers don't know this is whats going on but the "bait and switch" with the camera can be very convincing on the replayed videos!

Without letting on to your reasons ask where these people hunted to take their "big five" with a 45/70. Odds are it was a private ranch with put and take game.  Now that Randy Garrett 45/70 is a dandy load and kills far better then any other 45/70 ammo I know of. It does not make the 45/70 into a 458 win mag and the 458 rifle was considered marginal with its original loadings. Those original loads were still better then the 45/70 today.  Many elephants that were shot with that original 458 Win mag and the bullets had problems. The  base could be seen sticking out of the skinquite often!

We are not talking whitetails here or even Elk. DG and all the big five are much more of a struggle to crumple then almost anything in the USA.
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Offline 5Redman8

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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2004, 01:17:29 PM »
JJ

Just so there is no misinformation here, NOT ALL hunting in the Eastern Cape is CANNED and Put and Take!!!  You really need to get over your hangup on the hunting there.

Jim Shockey, Outdoor Channel,  just did a hunting show 2 weeks ago in the eastern cape on low fenced/no fenced areas.  He hunted East Cape Kudu, Cape Grysbok, Cape Bushbuck, Blue Duiker, and Black Wildebeest.

Others, be aware there is GREAT hunting in the Eastern Cape and other parts of RSA.....not just JJ's area.  Do your homework, and ask the right questions.

HAck, you dog East Cape hunting often, you sure you have researched every area enough to make such blanket statements as ALL East Cape hunting is put and take.  

From your post:

"In the Eastern Cape Canned hunts it's ok to hunt with anything you can dream up. Everything there is put and take or farm raised for hunters to kill."

Think you are a little biased on the info.

Kyle

Offline JJHACK

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single shot rifle for africa and dangerous
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2004, 04:04:36 PM »
Since this post is about Dangerous game and there are no indiginous dangerous game in the EC except leopard which is only a 150 pound animal the post is accurate.

There are only 6 or 8 indiginous "big game" species in the Eastern cape. If those are the ones your hunting then all is well with the world. If you are shooting Zebra, Blue Wildebeast, Gemsbok, Hartabeast, waterbuck. giraffe, Blesbok, impala, Etc etc etc. it's all been transplanted for hunters to shoot in a habitat they do not naturally live in.

It's the same as a European hunter coming to the USA and shooting a bison, dall sheep, moose, cariboo, elk, muskox, grizzly bear, mtn goat etc in Florida. They are all indiginous to North America but none are natural in Florida.

There are tons of big game in the EC which live there natural, but only a very few species. It's not a "hang-up" its a fact which many hunters don't understand until they arrive there to hunt. All I'm trying to do is point out that if you intend on a full bag plains game hunt which includes most of the common species you would like to hunt.  The EC is a very poor choice if you want to hunt indiginous wild game. If your not bothered by game raised on a farm and released to be shot then it's the biggest bargain of Africa. However it's less hassle to hunt those same species in Texas and a much shorter trip! Plus you get to keep the meat. If your going to hunt animals that are not in natural habitat why go all the way to Africa  for them when you can drive to Texas in the same amount of travel time on Average?

Here is a previous post to show the animals indiginous to the EC and the northern/limpopo/KZN provinces.  This should clear up what was intended in the previous post or at least give a better detail to my intent:

There are some things I hear about from time to time that make me wonder how many people actually understand the habitats or regions that the game in Southern Africa actually live in. I hear about folks hunting in various locations in South Africa specifically for animals that are hundreds of miles from their natural or indigenous habitat. The majority of hunters know that the species they are hunting are indigenous to the African continent; however that is about the limit of their game knowledge and geography. To put this another, way Dall sheep are indigenous to the North American continent. They do not occur in Texas though. Javilina are also indigenous to North America but they do not live wild in Alaska.

Hunting a large fenced area for whitetail deer in Texas is a hunt for natural indigenous game. Hunting that same property for blackbuck, eland, or Roosevelt elk is not. The same can be said for many places in the Southern African countries. There are hunts that are very inexpensive where you can shoot about 30 different species of game. Most of these are not in their indigenous or natural habitat though. Americans seem to be naive enough to assume that because you’re hunting in “Africa” for “African game” it must be legitimate. Not so!

Hunting many of the large Eastern Cape properties will allow you to harvest many different species that never occurred there naturally. They are in fact stocked prior to the arrival of the hunters in many cases.

I have no issue with genetic improvement through introductions of indigenous game. These animals are turned loose to breed with other naturally occurring game which are already in existence there. This is the proper way to manage game on any contained property and even in most open free range populations. There have been significant transplants of Mtn goats and bighorn sheep through out the northwest USA over the years to improve genetics and population numbers. The same has happened with wolves and grizzly bears in Idaho and Montana.

It makes no difference to me if a hunter shoots a moose or caribou in Georgia and calls it hunting. It makes no difference if he shoots an eland or dall sheep in Texas and feels it was a hunt. The part I want to make sure people are actually aware of is that just because they have gone to Africa, that does not mean the fallow deer, aoudad or other non-indigenous game was naturally occurring. Speaking only for myself, I would just as well go to an exotic game farm in Texas and save the 17 hour trip over the Atlantic and the big airfare expense!

Why go all the way to Africa to shoot an animal that does not even live natural where you’re hunting? It would be the same as a South African coming to America to shoot a Musk Ox in Nebraska. Then he goes home to tell the story of his wonderful and exciting hunt in “America”.

The most common location for sport hunters to have opportunities to shoot non-indigenous game is out of the Eastern and Western Cape. This tends to be one of the more popular areas for traveling hunters because it’s one of the least expensive locations to operate a hunting concession. It’s also typically the cheapest safari location in South Africa. These ranches or hunting concessions have plenty of stocked game placed there just to be shot. It’s not a location I would even slightly consider for most species or general bag plains game when hunting in South Africa.

There are indigenous species that make sense to hunt there but only very few when compared to other regions of the country. If you are going to fly to Port Elizebeth to meet your outfitter you will very likely be hunt in the Eastern Cape. This is a much different habitat than most of the Stocked game would naturally occur in nature.

As an example I will use a well known Book written by Clive Walker a native South African who is the author of several wildlife books, and an expert on South African wildlife. It is also a strongly suggested study book in the Northern Province PH schools. In his book he has maps showing where the wildlife of South Africa naturally lives.

In the Eastern Cape (as defined by the South African “Book of the road” AA version), here is the typical indigenous species list of game hunted by International sportsman. If what you are hunting is not on this list and it’s being offered by your outfitter it is stocked just for hunting or game viewing. Just because the animal is not indigenous does not mean it’s not a challenge to find and shoot. It just means that you harvested a stocked animal in an un-natural habitat put there for the exclusive reason of being killed by a sportsman. No different then a Texas exotic hunt. I have used the Northern Province, and Kwa Zulu Natal as a comparison of indigenous species so you can see the difference.

Animal--Eastern Cape--Northern Province-&-Natal
Spotted Hyena-----no------------------yes
Brown Hyena-------no------------------yes
Leopard-----------yes----- -----------yes
Cheetah-----------no----- ------------yes
Elephant--------- no----- ------------yes
Lion------------- no----- ------------yes
White Rhino------ no----------------- yes
Burchells Zebra---no------------------yes
Bush pig---------yes------------------yes
Warthog-----------no------------------yes
Hippo------------no------------------ yes
Giraffe--------- no------------------ yes
Grysbok---------yes--------------------no
Rhebok----- ---yes------------------- yes
Klipspringer----yes------------------ yes
Duiker----- ----yes------------------ yes
Steenbok----- --yes----------------- yes
Blesbok----- --fringe-------------- fringe
Reedbok----- --fringe------------------yes
Mtn reedbuck---- yes------------------yes
Springbok-------- no-------------------no
Impala---------- no------------------- yes
Blue wildebeest----no---------------- yes
Black wildebeest---no------------------no
Tssessebe ----- ---no-------------------yes
Gemsbok -------- no--------------------fringe
Red hartebeest-----no------------------yes
Sable-----------no-------------------- yes
Roan---- ------no------ ---------------yes
Waterbuck ------ no--------------------- yes
Bushbuck----- ----yes------------------ yes
Nyala----- ------no-------------------- yes
Eland------ -----no------------------- yes
Buffalo------ ---no------------------- yes
Kudu----- ------yes-------------------- yes

Total --------13 species ---------32 species


Of these listed only the Grysbok does not occur in the Northern Province, but can be hunted in the Eastern Cape. It's a logical species to be hunted there.

If you truly want to go to Africa and see wild game in natural habitat and experience the whole "African Bush" the choice becomes very clear with minimal research. If you want to go to a place where you can see game taken from it’s natural habitat and placed in a location for game viewing or to be shot then the Eastern Cape as seen by the listing above would be a good choice.

Please do your homework before you book a hunt. You may have a great disappointment with the animals you have harvested from a stocked game farm which is not much different then just booking an exotic hunt in Texas. It’s not just the hunting either, it’s the whole package of game you will see while being there. That is a big part of the experience of being in Africa isn't it? Seeing game in its natural environment, living the way it should.

If you only wish to see the animals themselves then the San Diego Zoo, and Busch gardens in Florida have them and they are much less expensive to see! This Eastern Cape game ranching or stocking situation is one of the reasons RSA has a bad rap for providing high fenced cheap hunts for stocked game.

This is certainly not the case for the whole country or every Province. To be fair Natal and the Northern Provinces have outstanding indigenous hunting for plenty of game as can be seen from Clive Walkers List of indigenous species. For my money the African Experience is only an “Experience” when you are in the bush with natural wild game that should be where you see it, not planted for your viewing or shooting pleasure!
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Offline 5Redman8

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single shot rifle for africa and dangerous
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2004, 04:52:18 PM »
I understand your point....but when you make blanket statements such as the one I quoted, you come off as if there are no hunts in the EC worth going to.

As a PH in this forum, I would think your resposibilty would to educate, rather than make general assumptions about the hunting in EC.

Kyle

Offline JJHACK

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« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2004, 07:25:28 PM »
Within the context of this thread regarding dangerous game my post was 100% accurate. As a PH I do have plenty of experience to make this statement. I have been a PH here 12 years now and have hunted across the entire country. Remember we are not speaking about plains game within the original context of this thread, we are speaking about dangerous game. Read my original post carefully and see that it exactly my point.  Don't take my comment personal regading plains game. This is a Dangerous game thread originated by somebody else,..... not me.

The only dangerous game in the EC that actually lives there natural is the leopard, and they are only 150 pounds when compared to all the others which are much bigger. You would also be very hard pressed to get a leopard tag in the EC or anyplace else in RSA except on a Put and take operation. There were only 60 permits issued for sport hunters in 2004 in the whole of RSA for wild leopards.  There are some people who claim a unique species of Elephant are indiginous but I have a dozen books that contridict that and claim they were introduced. It does not really matter they are all in a park and cannot be hunted anyway.

I am not knocking the EC for people who would enjoy that kind of hunting. I am trying to educate the average American to understand that Texas style "exotic" hunts are very common in RSA especially in the EC. AS you said the hunter should investigate his choices and ask the right questions to be 100% certain he is getting the kind of hunt he is after.

A hunter can go to the EC and shoot a truck load of game in a couple days on one of the many farms there. Or he could hunt the Jungle of KZN and spend 10 days to shoot a single wild animal. The same hunt in the northern Province might get him an animal every two days on Average. Everything depends upon the hunt each person is interested in doing. Many guys wish to get the greatest bang for the buck and just want to have a lot of shooting. The EC was made for them. Then you have guys that want to actually hunt for natural wild game and the northern provinces were made for them. The Northern Provinces are going to offer the same species but at a higher cost and much greater difficulty level in the very thick bush.

Not a single location is bad or "wrong" it depends upon the man going and what he wants. Without a doubt the EC has the least expensive hunts in Africa.  That makes it very attractive to the person wanting a trophy room of African game on a limited budget and with limited time.  All you need to do is look at the hunts offered across the EC and see they typically have packages that offer an animal a day or more. That would be very difficult for actual natural game in the north.  I have never seen a Nothern Province hunt with an offering of an animal per day in their packages.  There are several advertiseres in the SCI magazine offering 5 day 7 animal hunts. When I worked those properties we could easily shoot 2-3 animals a day. If I had a bigger truck to haul dead game I could probaly shoot even more per day. We just lose time bringing the game all the way back to the lodge for processing.

I was with a landowner who raised Zebra and had an outfitter who was running short and had more hunters coming. We drove the old  Massey Furgeson with a big flat bed trailler carrying Lucerne( like Alphalfa)  the Zebra came running the the sound of the tractor and the outfitter looked over them for stallions. The landowner and the Vet darted the ones the outfitter wanted and then we loaded them in  a trailler to be taken to his property for restocking. I have done the same with Blue wildebeast, Blesbok, and Gemsbok many times. These animals were rasied as if they were livestock and released to be shot only days before the hunters showed up.

The outfitter I worked for at the time bought a buffalo and had it released on a small property of about 1000 acres. One water hole existed and it was about 80 yards from the fence. We took the hunter in just before first light when the darkness could conceal the size of the property and the majority of the fence. The Hunter was told that the buffalo's were coming to water at first light so we would sit in the blind and wait to see what would come. He was also told that the big bulls were always alone. This set him up mentally for what we expected to follow.

After sneaking into the blind before light and settling in we watched many different animals come to water which made the whole process seem as wild as the plains of Tanzania! Sure enough after that bull worked up a thirst running the perimiter of that fence he smelled the water and came walking in alone. He was alone because he is the only buffalo on the property. Don't even need a qualified PH to judge him because he was premeasured before release.  Can't make a mistake in judging with only one bull!

The hunter shoots the bull and we put the skinners on the job while the energy from the successful hunt is still strong we drive out with the hunter never even realizing how small the property was as he never walked any distance. If this sounds unbelievable its the way many outfitters function. It took a few years of this disgusting hunting to show me that very few places offered what I was looking for in a business. 100% of the outfits I worked with in the EC had non-indiginous game which was purchased and released prior to the arrival of hunters.

Obviousley I did not work for them all, I did work for enough and I did go to the game auctions to see just how many game farm buyers were there. I'll tell you it's 1000's of people in the game raising and selling business  there.  That is one of the biggest of all business's in the EC.

Certainly there are a number of locations without fences that can hunt during province legal seasons. However to have an Exempt game farm in RSA it must be high fenced or you cannot hunt year round and you cannot hunt freely without special exemptions. The laws are clear in RSA regarding an exempt game farm for sport hunting. The high fence is a mandatory part of the deal. Just because you see some guy on the tele saying it's not high fenced does not mean for one second that it's true! If he was a non-RSA resident and hunting on an Exempt property is was either high fenced or the hunt was probably not legal. There are plenty of unusual things that could be involved. One thing I learned long ago as a Magazine editor for a big game hunting magazine. The words "always and never" are the two most likely words to get you in trouble. I hesitate to use them regarding anything in RSA!!

Let me put it this way. I have seen so many really great scams that I cannot even believe how smart these guys are to set them up.  So much is going on there you would actually have to see it and work there to believe it. It's probably not at all what you think it is, no matter what it looked like.

I would have left RSA to become a PH someplce else if it were not for a few good outfitters I met over the years who showed me that RSA really does have some excellent hunting operations that I could be proud to work with, become partners with and offer hunts my hunters could be proud of for the game they hunted there. It's probably the only reason I stayed. If the whole of RSA was what I experienced in the EC I would have bailed out a long time ago!
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Offline fortress49

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thanks
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2004, 05:05:57 AM »
Thanks for the replies.  

The points that have been brought up seem to make sense.  I would never have thought to at least ask the questions about "canned" hunts in Africa.  I live in Texas and am aware of the "exotic" hunts here.  They have never interested me because of the very reasons that have been brought up.  I would like to hunt indigenous game.  So, when and if I can eventually afford an African hunt, I will have a few questions to ask before I go.

What makes and models of 375 H&H do you like?  I am partial to manlicher style rifles.  Do you know of any in 375 that have good quality?

Matt