Author Topic: Gimme some advice on guns (Read 1445 times)

Graybeard · « **on:** January 15, 2003, 06:33:14 PM »

OK things are looking good for me to get this going this year. I have a few Contender barrels and a frame or two I'll likely be selling after I finish some product test shooting for the reviews I have to write. That should get me a couple of handguns and Big Ed has very generously offered to front me the leather so I need to decide on what handguns to buy.

Let me start by saying I don't wanna shoot Rugers. I want to shoot Colt Clones. Now my experience with them is limited. I had an EMF Dakota with 4-3/4" barrel and must admit I really fell in love with it. Fit was as tight as could be, not like a FA but really tight for a production gun. Trigger pull was awesome. Near the equal of the FA guns. Honestly. Accuracy was excellent, as good as my tired old eyes can see. BUT POI and POA were over a foot apart at 25 yards. Now that seemed way too much and so I no longer have the gun. Long story told elsewhere on here.

So now help me decide what I should get. What distances are targets normally shot at with the handguns? Over or under 25 yards? How big are the targets generally? Bigger than a soda pop can? Smaller?

Normally I'm a long barrel fan when shooting for accuracy but if I understand this game correctly real precision isn't called for like in the silhouette games I used to shoot. So I'm thinking along the lines of either 4-3/4" or 5-1/2" barrels. Should both guns be the same? Is there an advantage to one having a longer sight radius than the other?

Brands? Yeah I know that's an open question for sure. Money is gonna still be short so the more expensive ones aren't in consideration for now. I might or might not decide to shoot BP later but for now lets talk only about smokeless.

Would EMF Dakotas be a good choice? Who would I get to adjust the POI to my POA if they shoot off like my other one did? What other of the less expensive brands should I consider? AWA? Who else?

Are Rossi 92s still being made? I really like the one Hook had when I visted him to hunt deer awhile back. Half round and half octagon barrel about 24" long I think. Other choice would be a Marlin Cowboy I guess. Had one in .45 LC but didn't get started in CAS like I intended and traded it off for something so am familiar with them.

Shotguns. Since it looks like my Stoger 28 ga. isn't technically legal and since my right shoulder has bursitis really bad I'll go for a 20 ga. I guess. Is the Stoger OK. 20" barrels or 26" What's best here.

Now understand please I'm not getting in this to be a competitive shooter. Just to have fun. Winning is of no importance, just having fun.

I think I want to use .45 Colt for ammo in both rifle and handguns. I'm set up for it already and have a fair supply of cases and bullets and moulds to make more.

So put the advice on me.

GB

Jax Orebetter · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2003, 07:01:20 PM »

Howdy GB,

I guess I'll start ya off.
Pistol targets- most are between 7-10 yards. They range in size, but most are 12x12 or so. The smallest I have seen at matches were little cowboys and coyotes that were knockdowns. THey were about 12"tall and 4-5" across, but you don't see many of those.

Rifle targets- I'd say average is about 30-40 yards at 16x16 plates. This one varries too. The farthest I have shot in a match that wasn't for a bonus was 85 yards at a 16x16 plate.

Shotgun targets- 10-15 yards. Everything from plates to poppers that throw charcoal briquets, soda pop cans(full, they sure do make a mess when you hit em'), and clay birds.

As you can see, accuracy isn't at a premium.

Now for guns.

Yes, you can still get the 92's. They seem to have a smoother action out of the box than the Winchesters. Good solid guns.

If you don't want Rugers, that prety much leaves Uberti. I think they are making most of the clones for Cimmeron, EMF, and Navy Arms.
I started out shooting a pair of 7 1/2" Bisleys. In this game I don't think the extra barrel length helps much, other than mentally. If you think you shoot better with them, you just might. :wink:

Before you go out and spend a lot of money on guns, go to a match and talk to the pards. Bring a couple of boxes of shells. I am sure people will be beggin you to try their guns.

Well, I guess I have rambled enough. (for now :grin: ) Hope this helps a little.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2003, 07:42:21 PM »

Ok, here goes....

Given that Colt is too 'spensive (which I agree with BTW) and Rugers don't suit yer taste yer left with clones. Absolutely all of them are pretty good guns these days! I am particularly fond of the Uberti Clones which are imported under a number of brand names, including EMF. I've got a pard who often shoots clean matches with the Cabelas Millenium Revolvers too! (now that's cheap AND good) USAF is making Colt clones in America, but prices are still a bit steep there.

However, there other considerations! Like Remmies!

I shoot 1875 Remington Clones from Uberti and absolutely LOVE them! And I think EMF is still selling the 1890 Remmie clones, for the pard who likes a shorter barrel with a less muzzle heavy feel and the pointability of the Remmies! There are also the Open Tops and Conversions of the 1860 Army to consider as well as the break top S&Ws. I think they are asking WAY too much for the S&Ws though. And finally there are the 1858 Remingtons with the R&D conversion cylinders to turn them into .45 Colt shooters! Cool but the cylinders cost more than the guns! :eek:

Actually, the best suggestion I can give you is to go to a couple of shoots, take a box of CAS loads in .45 and try some of the guns there. Rest assured the pards will be glad to let you take their guns fer a short spin! Especially if yer nice enuff to leave the empty hulls with the gunowner! :lol:

Regarding POA/POI and single actions: Any gunsmith worthy of the name can adjust POI on a single action. It's a simple process of barrel turning and adjusting the front sight height! DON"T try to adjust POI by bending the front sight, it WILL break if you do this. Period!

CAS ranges: Most revolver targets will be well over 12" x 12" (and I mean WELL over) and they will be located anywhere from 7 to 20 yards from the shooter. Actually 20 yards is rare believe it or not! Carbine targets will be from 10 to 50 yards most of the time, with most being about 15 yards away. Scatterguns will be shooting from 7 to 20 yards tops!

That Rossi: You will never go wrong with one of those! They are the work horse of CAS! The 92 action is bull strong too, capable of handling .44 mag pressures and up. In fact they are currently being chambered in .454 Casull! In .45 it would make you a great dual purpose gun for deer hunting and CAS. (terminal ballistics of warm .45 Colt loads in a carbine are nearly identicle to 30-30 loads at 100 yards) The biggest drawback to the 92 is that they are a butt pain to strip. I only do a complete tear down of mine a couple of times a year. However there is a quick & easy method that I recommend for regularly schedualed cleaning. Place a fired cartridge case in the chamber, close the action, then clean from the muzzle like a front stuffer. (don't try this trick with a bottle necked chambering, you'll end up getting a jag stuck in the case!!) Then remove the butt stock (one screw) and hose out the action with your favorite cleaning solvent, spray with your favorite gun oil, and put the stock back on! Pretty simple! :-) By the way, if you get that Rossi we can put you on to a website or two that will explain the trick to complete tear down & reassembly and even how to slick the action up so it's smooth as butter.

Scattergun: I'm going to deviate from common advise here. I still think you should go with a twelve bore! My reasoning is, the smaller framed 20 gauge guns seem to kick as hard as the 12 gauge, especially with the warmer loads needed to put down popper targets. In twelve gauge you get a heavier gun that seems easier on the shoulder when loaded with those cheap field loads from Wally World. And the 3 dram loads in twelves will put em down with more authority than a warm 20 gauge. Another place I tend to step away from the crowd is in scattergun barrels. I like a full length barrel gun! The sawed off guns may make a difference to the speed demons at the leading edge of CAS, but I've yet to see the average pard who really benefits from using a short barrel scattergun. Also I see a lot of pards who've bought sawed offs end up putting another $150.00 or more in them to have screw in chokes installed. With a full length barrel in modified and full you're ahead of the game there. With poppers I hammer the first with the modified barrel and then take my time getting on the flyer with the full choke barrel and grab those bonus seconds everytime!

I reckon a good shooter would do just the opposite and use the full on the popper and the modified to nail the bird just as it comes out of the launcher!

Those are my thoughts! Worth purdy much wat ya paid fer em! :wink:

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2003, 08:41:11 PM »

Thanks guys. Keep them coming.

Those targets are even bigger and closer than I realized. Of course I won't be shooting at them with my long barrel target guns either. In NRA Silhouette matches the closest targets were the chickens at 25 meters. They were about the size of your hand. Pigs at 50 meters were closer in size to the normal targets you mentioned Jax. Even with a short barrel like my Dakota I should be able to do OK. Wish I'd known that before I let it go as I'm pretty sure it would have worked on those. I assume the goal is speed with accuracy? Now I'm not much on speed and most everything I've ever done has been based on pure accuracy not speed. Two minutes to get off five shots is about as fast as any game I've played has required other than when I shot a little bullseye stuff one year a long time ago.

Rifle targets sound even easier but as I said I dunno about fast.

Do I have a maximum time I'm allowed? Do I get a penalty or just get stopped at some time limit?

For all those flying targets my 28 ga. sure would be nice. That's my favorite skeet gauge and I used to use it even in 20 and 12 ga. matches in competition. Once I was a fair shotgunner.

I really liked the Dakota and may see if I can round me up some more. I like the looks of that Cabela's Millenium revolver also. Nice and subdued in looks like an old gun might have worn into.

It does sound like I need to go at least watch a match to see what is going on before buying much. I've written to Holiday to get driving directions to his range. I think they are the closest to me.

Thanks. GB

No Cattle · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2003, 01:46:29 AM »

Speed is the name of the game.
The distances that are posted are realistic.
If they are in error the actual distances will probably be even shorter.
A normal 10 pistol rounds, 10 rifle rounds, and 4 shotgun stage can frequently be shot in times of 30 to 32 seconds by top shooters.
Sometimes even less.
I normally finish right near the midline of the match and will shot a stage like that in about 55 to 65 seconds with possibly 1 miss.

Jax Orebetter · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2003, 02:45:10 AM »

GB,

Here's how it works.

Before the match begins there will be a safety meeting to go over the rules. Most clubs will ask if there are any new shooters. If there are these people will be partnered up with a veteran shooter. You will then be put on a "posse" that you will shoot with for the match. The posse will the set up a shooting order so you will know when it is your turn to shoot. When it is getting close to your turn you will go to the loading table. Load your pistols and rifle while the loading table officer watches. He will check your pistold to make sure there is not a round under the hammer. When it is your turn you will be called to the shooting line. The timer will ask if you are ready. Stand by....BEEP. The timer goes off and you start the stage. The timer is there to assist you in any way he can to make sure you shoot the stage properly and safely. He will even coach you if you are having trouble remembering the shooting order or stage directions. After you're finished shooting the stage the timer will state your time for the scorekeeper. You will proceed to the unloading table to clear your guns. End of stage.

No time limit. I have had stages that could have been times with a sun dial. :-D

Keep those questions comming. It makes me feel like I know what I am talking about. :grin: :grin:

Biggun Stump · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2003, 02:51:15 AM »

The guyz have got it right!

Get hooked up with a local club. Tell somebody there you're new and trying to decide on your hardware. You'll have plenty of opportunities to try out differant guns, I promise!

CAS folks are incredibly generous when it comes to helping out a new shooter. You'll also get plenty of advise on where to find used guns at good prices, as well as things to watch out for.

Take your time, and don't rush out to spend your hard-earned until you've spent some time trying out other folks guns.

Now, about this Rugerphobia............. :lol:

Rifled Slug · « **Reply #7 on:** January 16, 2003, 02:52:32 AM »

Howdy ,
I have to agree with Mr. Crooked about the 12ga scatter gun . I bought my wife a 20ga Stoeger thinking it would work well for her ( she isn*t very big ) and it beat her up so bad she didn*t want to shoot any more . I even added about a pound of lead to the butt stock to reduce the recoil and still it was uncomfortable for her . With the rite loads the 12ga is a much more user friendly firearm and if you are thinking about the dark side it would be a much better choice IMHO .
I have one of those Rossi rifles with the half octagon / round barrel in 45 and am very pleased with it . I also have a pair of 58 Remingtons with the R&D cylinders in 45 that I shoot Schofield lenght cartridges in . Now just by chance the Schofield lenght cartridges will also cycle through the Rossi which is a plus . Some guns won*t cycle the shorter rounds .
I usually shoot Rugers with 7 1/2" barrels so can*t comment on the clones .

107ch · « **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2003, 03:07:08 AM »

Howdy Mr. Beard,
I'll throw in my two cents here. I used to shoot ipsc in the early 80's and remember how quickly the financial end of this can get out of hand! So when I got the cowboy bug last year I wasn't sure where to start. My main goal was to get half way decent guns CHEAP!, I picked up a pair of Cabelas millenium revolvers for what one ruger goes for. I put wolff spring kits in both, then I picked up the LSI puma 92 lever in 45 colt. I think that is the same as the rossi. This company is making the 92's for Navy Arms, I got the 24" octagon barrel and it is nice! the only difference I can see from the Navy Arms version,other than price, is the wood and the extra safety that is on the bolt. For a shotgun I went with the stoeger but I hate the look of those short stubby coach guns and I ended up with one that also works as a grouse gun.I think if you shop around you can get all of that for around 1100.00 .Best of luck.
Dennis Holmbeck

Cheyenne Ranger · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2003, 04:08:04 AM »

just curious as to why RV's don't "do it" for you. Now, I totally believe that people have different tastes--that's why we have Fords and Chevy's. Cost or size or

Flint · « **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2003, 05:14:18 AM »

Graybeard isn't the only one that doesn't like Rugers... Different people for different reasons. I will, and have, shot Old Model Rugers, and Ruger Old Armies in CAS, but I just cannot get friendly with New Model Rugers. It looks the same but works different, that I can't abide. The cylinder holes don't line up with the ejector rod 'cause there's no half cock. The 357 is too big and unbalanced. I prefer the 4 click Colt system. Uberti made revolvers are hard to beat. The new AWA are supposed to be good, haven't tried them. I shoot Cimarron and Navy Arms/Uberti guns as Colt clones and also the Uberti Remington '75 and '90. Also the Navy Arms Russian.

Cheyenne Ranger · « **Reply #11 on:** January 16, 2003, 05:38:45 AM »

Thanks Flint,
Always good to see things from someone else's point of view. My wife is not crazy about my RV's as they are too big for her hands, so we will be looking elsewhere for her.

Someone said Cimmeron has good quallity control, but I also read posts that said they couldn't even get them to answer their phones or e-mails.

Any data on this would also be appreciated.

Graybeard · « **Reply #12 on:** January 16, 2003, 08:19:34 AM »

Walt, my history with Rugers in general is long and checkered. For the most part all I've owned have been major disappointments to me. Some of my friends over on the SSRF claim it is a conspiracy against me by Ruger.

I can say I do like my Bearcats and I do like the new Bisley 5-5" .45 Colt with Adj. sights I now have. But for CAS they are just too big and don't feel right in my hands. Pretty sure I want to stay with Colt Clones for now at least. Later we'll see what direction I might head on in.

OK guys I hear what you are saying about the 12 vs. 20. Will look at it a bit more. At first match am gonna likely have only my 28 ga. and will see if they will let it use it. Not too concerned about scores and don't even really care if they post one for me. Will try some and see what seems right. That right shoulder has had enough pounding and don't really want much more. The doctor told me to stop shooting completely but that's not gonna happen. Still I must stop shooting heavy kickers. Way too many tens or more likely hundreds of thosands of rounds on it over the years. Used to shoot a pure money game with shotguns and it wasn't uncommon to fire 500 1-1/4 oz. loads in a day. That takes a toll on the body.

Jax and No Cattle. Thanks for the insight on time. At least initially I can't imagine shooting that many rounds in under a minute. Guess I'll just have to see it and experience it to understand. Never been known for speed. Always said I'm not really fast but then I'm not really too slow either. Just kinda half fast. :-D Knowing I have no real specific time limit is good. Even if they use a sundial to time me that's OK. Gotta be better than some of the folks who used to work for me. Had to sight on them and a telephone pole to be sure if they were moving or not.

When they did a time study on one fellow they used a calendar instead of a stop watch.

The rifle comments lead me to another question I'll ask separately.

GB

Old Cane · « **Reply #13 on:** January 16, 2003, 12:01:50 PM »

Everybody is right on here with what they are telling you. I think SASS recommends targets 16" for pistol and so on. It is close fast shooting. The targets look huge and I'm embarassed to miss but don't let that deter me. You move between shot strings a lot. Sometimes other stuff, like carrying a box, cracking a whip, etc. It's not bullseye and it's not quick draw. You don't move when you shoot, though. You'll learn as you go.

For guns you have a couple of choices in pistols. Uberti, Uberti or U....well, mostly Uberti. The others are AWA which I think was ASM and the Piettas that EMF is selling as Great Western II. EMF is also a seller for Uberti. The other option that is a few dollars more is USFA's Rodeo. It has sort of a parkerized finish. You can find all of the above from used to new for $250 to about $550.

In rifles you can go with Uberti, Rossi, Marlin or Winchester. Uberti's have the higher end of the market with Henry, 66 and 73 repros. Rossi has the 92 market and Winchester the 94. Marlin is like the Win on steroids but people have success with all. It's just a personal thing.

Stoegers are very popular for doubles. Several other choices, EAAs, Norincos and such. Lots of older guns in this type used also. In the other types, a couple shoot Win. 87s (lever action) and Marlin 93(?) if you can find originals. Win. 97 pumps are the most popular and Norinco makes a tank of a clone.

You could, shopping around and not being stuck on having exactly what you desire, get all 4 needed for under $1000. You could also spend $5000.

Graybeard · « **Reply #14 on:** January 16, 2003, 12:25:38 PM »

Nope Old Cane Pard, I can't spend $5000. I ain't got $5000 ta spend. :eek:

Got the problem partly solved on a temporary basis. EMF is gonna provide me a pair of Dakota's which I already know I like real well for Product Tester fer 60 days. If I like them well enough I can buy then cheap or return them. Jist costs me a Product Test Review fer mah efforts.

Decided to stick with the 4-3/4" barrels like my other one had as I shore did like the look and feel of them. So I'm purdy shore I'll stick with that barrel length. That's the size holsters Big Ed is working up for me. Later I may decide to upgrade the revolvers but from the little experience I had with the other one I had except for shooting too far left I really liked it.

Ain't getting in to become a "competitor" but for the fun of it.

Still gotta work out the rifle and shotgun. Gonna hafta buy at least one of those if not both thru Steve at Sportsman's Exchange in Gadsden, AL. Steve is a mighty fine fellow and never charges me a dime to accept guns like these for me for product testing or even when I buy one from someone on the internet. So I have to give him all of my local business and I tell everyone else he is the best place to deal with down around my part of Bama.

GB

Old Cane · « **Reply #15 on:** January 16, 2003, 01:29:01 PM »

Sounds like a nice guy and worthy of local support. In rifles I think the Rossi will be the cheapest. Most guys are happy with the way they come but there is a guy that is supposed to be numero uno on the 92s. I think it's stevesguns.com. If not I'll get you the right address if you need it. The new ones do have some sort of safety that lots of guys don't like. Older ones don't and the ones Navy and EMF sell don't but they are a little more money, a little more correct.

Marlins can be had at good prices but the "cowboy" models of course are more. Nice guns. I like octagon barrels. The Win 94s (new models) fall in between the Rossi and Marlin in price. If you find a Uberti for $500 buy it if it shoots. Expect to pay from low $500s used to $1000 or so new. Average around $650 for a 66 or 73.

For a double, you either need one like the Uplander or Coach Gun with extractors but not ejectors. Single or double trigger doesn't really matter. I'd go with a 12 and maybe get one of those mercury absorber things and a leather pad.

Mainly, get what you like and you can probably get more use out of it than just CAS.

Jose Grande · « **Reply #16 on:** January 17, 2003, 07:46:17 PM »

GB,I highly recomend the Rossi 92 in .45 Colt. It works very well.
Carbine or rifle is personal preference. Carbines are generally cheaper.
For a shotgun there are options. Lone Yankee, who has visited your forum has a load worked up for a 20 ga. that is easy on recoil but knocks down our Action Pistol plates(Bianchi Cup). We've a friend with quadruple bypass surgery & regular recoil from a 20 or 12 is too much.
Stoeger has a good SXS called an Uplander 28in. that is perfect. A used Stevens 311 or 315 works very well. I shoot a 315, Lone a 311. The uplander,311,315 are all likely to be 12 ga. I have a 1oz. & a 1 1/8 oz. loads that do well in SASS that I would pass along if yuh needed them.
If needed I will send Lone's e-mail add. to yuh as well.