What's so bad about the Gamo rifles?

[cocojo]

I was looking for a nice air rifle and not too expensive. I saw the Gamo shadow and I like the looks of it. What I did like is that it's ambidextrous. Being a lefty it seems like it's the only rifle out there that's left handed. What I have read on this site is that no one seems to like these guns. What's wrong with them? They have a Limited Lifetime Warranty. What's the problem?

[mjfa]

Awful trigger and almost always you find a better gun on the same price range.  Take a look at the RWS 94 by Cometa it is much better gun than the Gamo Shadow and won't cost you much more if you shop around.

[VictorLouis]

Check out the Chinese clone of it at


www.funsupply.com

It's known as the B18/B19

[Mauser]

As a lefty I always have these problems with all types of guns (except single action revolvers).  I discovered that the Webley Air rifles have ambi stocks and now I own two.  They are great and aren't too expensive either, for what you get.

[Lawdog]

cocojo,

What's wrong with them? They have a Limited Lifetime Warranty. What's the problem?

Way too much plastic inside their rifles, goes thru seals like they were free and Gamo will not stand behind their products.  Yeah they have a "Limited Lifetime Warranty" that would be good if they backed up their product.  I have been there and done that with Gamo.  Never again, not at half the price.

What I did like is that it's ambidextrous.

Check around and you will find that many of the good manufactures offer ambidextrous rifles.  Beeman, RWS, FX, etc. all offer rifles with cheek pieces on both sides of their rifles.  Before I would buy a Gamo again I would purchase a good Chinese rifle(check out www.compasseco.com for Tech Force rifles which will compare to many of the top dollar rifles from Europe and end up being money ahead).  Lawdog
 

[VictorLouis]

You really have to get into the very-high-dollar range before the cheekpiece is a notable issue.

 With Beeman R-series, the Gamos, RWS/Diana(large ones), BSA, Tech-Force, BEC etc...I've not even blinked at the absence of a LH cheekpiece. The Theoben SLR, Air Arms TX series, Daystate...those ARE a problem. They even make dedicated LH stocks for most of them because of that reason.

[His lordship.]

In the early 1990s I had purchased a Chinese pistol, total garbage, the worst I ever owned.  And a Chinese made side pump rifle clone of the RWS series, I believe it was used as an SKS rifle trainer, as it was similar to the army rifle, noticably junkie, but it worked.  My friend has it now, still going strong.  

As this rifle did not have the safety lock back of the bolt it has slammed home several times, bending the loading lever (soft steel), you have to use your elbow to make sure your fingers are not inside the receiver if it decides to slam home when putting in a pellet.  I can imagine it would do very serious damage to your fingers if it closed with such force.

Their pellets were very bad, all bent up, poor sealing, we used the few tins I bought to shoot some old model kits, and my fellow shooters were really complaining on how bad they were.

Have the Chinese improved their guns and pellets?  I cringe when I see their stuff as I remember the early 90's.

I have not heard good things on the Gammo guns.  Your horror stories will keep me from wasting my money.

Thanks.

[VictorLouis]

Check out the info on www.funsupply.com

There are good Chinese guns, and lesser ones. There's a LOT of info there.

[Questor]

Air rifles are a "you get what you pay for" proposition.  The Gamos are OK if you need to keep your costs down. But you get a really good comparable gun for about $100 more.

[Lawdog]

Chris D.,

Have the Chinese improved their guns and pellets? I cringe when I see their stuff as I remember the early 90's.

I own a Tech Force 99M in .22 caliber.  It is a clone of the HW 97 with the same Rekord trigger that is used on many higher dollar European made air rifles(Theoben for one).  It also has an accuracy rating the same as the HW 97 - C-T-C 0.13”.  It also has a spring system designed by Jim MacCari, one of the premier spring designers in America.  This rifle gives an honest 900 fps. in .22 caliber.  It has an automatic safety and a bear-trap safety on the underlever to keep it from closing at the wrong time.  There are still many Chinese air guns that are JUNK but many are getting rave reviews form many so called experts today.  Tom Gaylord is one.  Check out the Tech Force line at www.compasseco.com and see for yourself.  Lawdog
 

[mjfa]

Something I've learned through experience is that you need to physically judge an airgun for yourself to get a honest appreciation.  It's like manufacturers and dealers descriptions not always are in tune with consumer's reality, like foot and seconds measure quite different for several people.  Just my humble opinion.

[VictorLouis]

that you need to physically judge an airgun for yourself to get a honest appreciation

THAT's certainly true, LOL! :-D

[doc_kreipke]

TF 99 looks interesting. A couple of Q's for owners of said rifle:  

1) Is there significant barrel droop such that compensating or adjustable scope mounts are necessary for it?

2) Will the BSA air rifle scopes offered by Compasseco stand up to its recoil forces?

Thanks

[Lawdog]

doc_kreipke,

1) Is there significant barrel droop such that compensating or adjustable scope mounts are necessary for it?

2) Will the BSA air rifle scopes offered by Compasseco stand up to its recoil forces?

1.]  There is no barrel droop with the Tech Force 99M.  Barrel is threaded into the action making it very strong and straight.  I am using Beeman 5030 mounts as i wanted good study mounts.

2.]  I am using a 3-12x BSA air rifle scope on my 99M and no problems yet.  Got over 1,750 pellets thru mine.  My son in-law is using one like it on his RWS 350M in .22 caliber and he has over 2,000 pellets thru his.  As far as I am concerned the new BSA scopes are well worth the money.  Not like the BSA scopes of just a year and a half ago.

I highly recommend both the Tech Force 99M(in which ever caliber you choose) and the BSA scopes.  Lawdog
 

[longgun]

Lawdog,  I was at that web site today looking at the 99M.  But reading the reviews it looks like the trigger was in the 5>6 # pull range.  Are the triggers adjustable?.  I'd buy one of these if it has a decent trigger.  It looks in appearance to the Air Arms TX 200.  I had a tx 200 but the gun was awful heavy ( over 10 # with scope)......What is the trigger like?  Don

[Lawdog]

Don,

The confusing part about Tech Force rifles is there are Tech Force rifles(manufactured by Shanghai Manufacturing, China) you can get from other dealers and those you get from Compasseco, Inc..  Compasseco smith’s take the standard Tech Force 99M and replaces the spring piston power plant with a piston spring by Jim MacCari.  Jim MacCari does not make springs to fit Tech Force rifles in general, only those offered by Compasseco, Inc.(I have talked to Jim MacCari personally to verify this).  The Compasseco smith’s also replace the standard trigger with a Rekord(same trigger used by many of the European air rifles(the same trigger found on the Beeman R series rifles)) adjustable trigger.  The problem with review sites, like the “Review Centre”, is they don’t separate standard Tech Force rifles from those offered by Compasseco, Inc..  Just go to the Review Centre and you will se that the review is listed as “Shanghai TF99”.  Tech Force rifles from other dealers I don’t know about BUT I do recommend the ones offered by Compasseco, Inc.  Lawdog
 

[mjfa]

1. Is the Compasseco's TF-99 "Rekord" trigger manufactured by H.Weirauch of Germany?

2. Is Jim MacCari the same James Maccari?

3. Why China's Du Li shot a Feinwerkbau 700 to win the Gold Medal and set a New Olympic Record 502.0 Total in Air Rifle Women Sat Aug 14 at Athens 2004 Olympics instead of a chinese air rifle?

4. Why China's Yifu Wang shot a Steyr LP10 to win the Gold Medal in Air Pistol Men Sat Aug 14 at Athens 2004 Olympics instead of a chinese air pistol?

5. Why China's Qinan Zhu shot a Feinwerkbau P70 to win the Gold Medal and set New Olympic Records of 599 on Qualification and 702.7 Total in Air Rifle Men Mon Aug 16 at Athens 2004 Olympics instead of a chinese air rifle?

6. Why China's Jie Li shot a Feinwerkbau P70 to win the Silver Medal in Air Rifle Men Mon Aug 16 at Athens 2004 Olympics instead of a chinese air rifle?

[dave]

1-  Absolutely not. The Rekord trigger unit is found only on HW guns, and NOT on Chinese guns.  The TF triggers are just like the guns- inferior copies.

2-JM does make springs for Chinese guns, but only by default. Since the designs of the Chinese guns are near direct copies of the real thing, the springs are interchangeable. Compasseco apparently does buy springs from JM, but thats as far as his association with them goes.

3 & 4- If you really need to ask....
you can't beat the real thing with an inferior copy. The Chinese just don't have a competetive gun.

[Lawdog]

dave,

The Rekord trigger unit is found only on HW guns

Well I guess I will have to take your word(that is until I hear back from Weihrauch on this) for the fact that Rekord are only found on Weihrauch rifles and that you know this personally.  That you have proof that they have never sold triggers to anyone else, ever.  Funny though that the trigger on my R-10 looks exactly like the one on my Tech Force 99M(markings and all) from Compasseco.

JM does make springs for Chinese guns, but only by default.

The following is a quote from an e-mail sent to me by Jim MacCari.

“Sorry I do not make anything for those Chinese guns other than what I make for Compasseco, Inc.”

Then Compasseco takes these springs and their smiths installs them in the Tech Force air rifles.  This is how his springs are in Tech Force rifles.  Tom Gaylord, who I believe now works for Air Force air guns, makers of the Talon rifle, gives high praises to the Compasseco, Inc. Tech Force line of rifles.  He has wrote a few articles about the quality of this line.  Tom has stated for the record that, “At the price, there isn’t another spring air rifle in its league.”.  Have you ever personally tried the Compasseco line of Tech Force rifles?  If not how can you comment on what you don't know?  Small groups and tight lines to you. Lawdog
 

[dave]

I've seen a lot of Chinese rifles, and even owned a couple. Seen and owned many others too, including the real deal HWs, FWBs, Dianas, BSF, etc. They just don't compare, and I don't care who is getting paid to say otherwise. I've seen them firsthand and know the difference.
The Rekord trigger costs ~$60-70 per unit, so I doubt that Compasseco is buying them in large numbers and installing them free of charge. If the 99 had a real Rekord trigger it would cost considerably more than $135. Most places that sell the QB-36-2 (TF99) get about $150 for them, so if Compasseco is installing a $70 trigger on it and selling it for $135 they are taking a big loss. From what I have seen and heard, the trigger is a copy of the HW unit, yes, even down to the markings. Just made of inferior materials and to lesser QC standards. (The Chinese are very clever at copying things in case you haven't heard)
JM does make springs for some Chinese rifles, he lists them on his website in the tune kit section. Take a look for yourself. Specifically the B21-22, but again, they were originally for other guns and just happen to fit.
Yes, the springs in the  TF guns are JMs, but not made specifically for the 99. They are generic fit springs and will fit a variety of different guns. There is a big difference between a spring set thats made for a specific gun and a generic spring that is  just dropped into a gun. Also, if the spring fits in a TF99 from Compasseco, they will fit in a TF99 or QB-36-2 from anywhere else, they are all the same gun. It's just a matter of taking out one spring and putting in the other.
As for the quote from JM, there is a reason he doesn't do springs for most Chinese guns. Care to guess why?

[mjfa]

The following is a quote from an email sent to me yesterday by James Maccari

From:      "JM"
To:          "Manuel"
Sent:       Sunday, August 15, 2004 11:30 PM
Subject:   Re: Compasseco's TF-99 Air Rifle

Dear Sir,
I do make the spring to THEIR SPECIFICATIONS ONLY.  Other than that I have no input on the guns whatsoever and never owned any of them.

Thank You!

[Lawdog]

dave,

You still haven't answered my question.  Have you ever owned a Tech Force rifle(models 20, 97 or 99M are three I am familiar with) from Compasseco or had the loan of one long enough to shoot 500 or so pellets through one?  It is plain to everyone that you don't like any make of Chinese air guns and that is your prerogative.  But until you have owned or had the long term loan of one of the Tech Force rifles after Compasseco smith’s have worked one over then I don’t believe you are qualified to comment on them.

The Rekord trigger costs ~$60-70 per unit, so I doubt that Compasseco is buying them in large numbers and installing them free of charge.

Will you check your books and quote me a price when a company buys 100,000 or more units?  Small groups and tight lines to you.  Lawdog
 

[dave]

I do currently have 2 Chinese guns, A TF89 and and older B-3. Neither one is really a gun you'd even want to run 500 pellets through. Rough firing, lots of kick, cocking cycle sounds like the spring is full of rocks, overall not well made at all. The only reason I have the 89 is someone else didn't want it and offered it free, just pay shipping. I did consider buying a 99 a while back, but every owner I talked to said to forget about it, don't waste your money, so I bought an R-10D instead. I sometimes will shoot my HW50M or HW35L for an entire day on and off if I have nothing else to do, but the behavior of the Chinese guns make you not want to use them for more than a few minutes. So far, the only real redeeming value that some Chinese guns have to offer is a decent barrel. The Chinese do seem to have gotten that part right, at least in some of the higher-end models like the QB-78/79.

Just how much work do think goes into one of those guns for the price you pay? Not long ago the JM spring was an option on the TF guns, about a $20 premium over the normal gun if I remember right. For that price, what you get is a simple spring swap, no more. Theres no "working over" as you say. Giving one of these guns a "real" tune-up using the JM spring would add at least $50-$75 to the cost. It's a bit labor intensive to go through any gun. You need to pay someone to do it, and to sell the guns as you suggest in any volume you'd need a whole factory full of workers to turn them out in the numbers you perceive.  
100,000 triggers? I doubt that HW even built that many for their own guns, let alone to sell to Compasseco so they could put them on unliscenced reproductions of HW guns! Also, again, theres that labor thing. Just how many people do you think work at Compasseco? Certainly not enough to install tens of thousands of triggers per year.

You're right about not really liking Chinese guns, but it's not because they don't work well or whatever(some apparently do), but because they (the Chinese makers as well as the importers) are taking advantage of unknowing buyers. They frequently quote power figures well above reality,(even more so than most other makers)  and advertising can lead some people to believe that they are just as good as the R-9, HW-97 or whatever they are a clone of for a fraction of the price. A good many Chinese rifles are even dangerous- if you're not careful with a cheap Chinese springer(especially the breech-loader underlevers) you could easily lose a finger or two. That B-3 I have is just such a gun. No safeties or beartrap latches, an accident wating to happen. It's the fact that many unknowing buyers get a Chinese gun and expect it to live up to the claims made. Many end up with a gun thats non-functional in a week with no support from the manufacturer, or with a gun that works but isn't at all any fun to use. The lack of quality control in Chinese airgun factories insures that buying an airgun from them is a crap shoot, maybe you get a good one, maybe you don't. Thats the kind of experience that turns potential future airgunners away from the sport.

I'd rather spend a bit more and get a gun that is built to much higher standards of quality, and one I know will last for many years with out breaking anything major. Heck, I have a couple 30+ year old Diana rifles that still have their original seals and springs intact, they still work like new. I don't think I have ever seen one of those German air rifles come from the factory with steel chips in the compression tube,  or a compression chamber full of grease, or a stock finish that looks like it was dipped in mustard.

[His lordship.]

Dave...I sold my mid-1990's vintage side pump Chinese pellet rifle to a friend with the clear understanding that he would have to use his elbow as a blocker on the pulled back loading lever whenever he put his fingers into the chamber to load a pellet as this rifle might slam closed, and cause an injury.  I did not know that the under levers were bad too?!  

Your observation of the safety risk is interesting regarding these Chinese pellet rifles slamming shut.  Why has this issue not gotten more exposure, and what exactly will happen to your fingers if left inside the chamber when it slams home?  It seems to me that we would have heard of people getting injured on the chat rooms, and the magazines.  With all the lawsuits plaguing our society, it seems that a hungry lawyer would move on this.

Thanks.

[dave]

Actually, any spring gun can do it. Even a break barrel gun can snap shut accidentally. If it does when your finger is pushing the pellet into the breech, ouch!   The sidelevers and underlevers that require you to stick your fingers into the exposed breech area are particularly bad. Picture your finger getting whacked by a 2" hole punch. That spring thats powering the sliding cover home if it accidentally releases has the power of a small stamp press, it'll slice and dice you in an instant. And don't think that hasn't happened, ask around on some of the various forums and you'll get some answers from guys who have lost parts to these guns.
As for lawsuits, I don't know. Seems that it would be hard to sue the maker. Over the years theres been tons of cheap Chinese toys etc that were inherently dangerous, yet they've always been available. It's just hard to stop the importation of this kind of thing as long as there is a market for it.
There are of course some guns that have safeties that are supposed to avoid this kind of thing, but they don't neccessarily work well, especially on cheaper guns.

[Lawdog]

Most all the newer air rifles like the barrel/side/under levers rifles that load directly into the chamber now have what most term or call a "bear trap" safety.  These seem to work just fine but just to be prudent one should take precautions.  Break barrels a shooter should break the barrel just far enough to insert the pellet then continue cocking the rifle.  Side and under levers rifles the shooter needs to hold the lever while inserting the pellet.  Taking these precautions will let you still count to ten without using your toes.  Lawdog
 

[lilabner]

I'm not surprised the Chinese were shooting top of the line German rifles. When you are competing for a world championship, you do what you have to for optimum performance.  Americans were shooting the same rifles, I imagine. I think people who equate Chinese products being sold now with those made in the '90s are off base. They are greatly improved. They now make more than half the cameras sold worldwide, and make lenses for Nikon and other prestigious Japanese cameras. I've been lurking around air gun bulletin boards and am impressed by the performance of some current Chinese products. I have a Chinese made Bushnell variables on one of my .22s and it is a great scope for the money. I want an air rifle to use for pot hunting on big game trips and don't want to spend several hundred dollars on one. I'll consider a Chinese product. World's best? Of course not. Good enough to get the job done? Could be.