Author Topic: 35 whelen for bear (Read 2164 times)

joshua 35 whelen · « **on:** August 22, 2004, 05:19:26 PM »

I will be on my first bear hunt ever and using my custom 35 whelen with 225 grain nosler ballistic tips with 55 grains of imr 4064 with a velocity of 2450fps. This gun stacks um up to 200yds. Should I shoot it in the neck or just put it on the shoulder. I have other guns like a 300 win mag and a 30-06. I don't use either of those and find myself attached to my whelen. The hunt will be over bait in Patten Maine so any replies are welcomed

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2004, 05:38:32 PM »

Your best bet would be the 250 round nose. Over bait most shots are 35 yards or less. If it were brown bears I would say shoot it in the shoulder to break the shoulder. Black bears are not that tough and I would go for a behind the shoulder shot. A neck shot is too risky.

The Whelen is a great round, I have 2.

dabigmoose · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2004, 07:36:46 PM »

HI jOSH
The 35 Whelen is a excellant choice and will take blackies with with plenty of authority .But of course if ya were a Onery old school teacher you could just swat em with a stick like some Alaskans do in Valdez. :wink:
Dabigmoose

CEJ1895 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 23, 2004, 03:12:14 AM »

joshua 35 whelen - I too hunt in Maine with a .35 Whelen but I prefer to use the 225 grain Nosler Partition's instead of the Ballistic Tips. They will absolutely HAMMER a bear if you place your shot correctly! There's been some discussion about the way the Ballistic tips stay together when they impact on game. The new Accu-bonds by Nosler are getting some good reviews here too especially with the big bore forum here but I haven't looked into them yet. Good luck on your hunt! CEJ...

dawei · « **Reply #4 on:** August 23, 2004, 03:16:46 AM »

Quote from: joshua 35 whelen

I will be on my first bear hunt ever and using my custom 35 whelen with 225 grain nosler ballistic tips with 55 grains of imr 4064 with a velocity of 2450fps. This gun stacks um up to 200yds. Should I shoot it in the neck or just put it on the shoulder. I have other guns like a 300 win mag and a 30-06. I don't use either of those and find myself attached to my whelen. The hunt will be over bait in Patten Maine so any replies are welcomed

I load 52.5gr of IMR4064®, Federal® LR Primer, a Remington® Case, with a 250gr Nosler® Partition Spitzer. That's my standard load for Roosevelt Elk and it stikes with Authority & Wallop out to 300yds!

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** August 23, 2004, 03:20:21 AM »

If you're gonna hunt over bait pin point accuracy isn't a concern. You'll likely be no more than 50-75 yards away at most. I'd use either the 225 PT or a 250 grain but not the BT.

I've used that 225 BT from a .358 JDJ at 2300 fps on deer and even turkey and it really opens up on them. I'd not trust it on bear at close range at even higher velocity personally. And for darn sure I'd not put the BT on the shoulder.

talon · « **Reply #6 on:** August 23, 2004, 04:31:16 AM »

I've shot 7 black bear with a Whelen using 200 grain spire points loaded to 90% of factory specs. All died on the bait, or less than 50 yards away. Always shoot them in the lungs as they are standing broadside over the bait which is from 50-65 yards away. I aim just behind the shoulder about a little more than 1/2 way down from the top. The heart is a little lower than this, but hair and fat will fool you if you attempt to be too precise. About 1/2 way down is a safe bet.

Gowge · « **Reply #7 on:** August 23, 2004, 08:00:23 AM »

Quote from: joshua 35 whelen

I will be on my first bear hunt ever and using my custom 35 whelen with 225 grain nosler ballistic tips with 55 grains of imr 4064 with a velocity of 2450fps. This gun stacks um up to 200yds..... The hunt will be over bait in Patten Maine so any replies are welcomed

Josh, you alredy got a lotta' good advice but I want to add a little note here. Standard jacketed bullets do their best work between 1900-2100fps IMPACT velocity. They expand best and have the best weight retention when you limit the IMPACT velocity between these ranges. At higher IMPACT velocties, the bullet begins to shred and come apart, thus reducing the weight of the projectile and the penetration it can achieve once it's near the animal's vitals. A premium bullet will allow you to bump the impact velocity up into the 2300fps range. This is why a heavier bullet at close range (reduces velocity and gives you more mass to start with) will work better, and a premium bullet will hold together even better.

Penetration is job one for a well placed bullet - we can worry later about whether the bullet delivered adequate shock or not....

I like two holes in game whenever possible. It helps in several ways, not the least is leaving a good blood trail. The larger bore of your 35 helps in this respect too, but the heavy bullets help to crush and smash big bones and drop an animal quickly and humanely. :wink:

GOOD LUCK!

Sourdough · « **Reply #8 on:** August 23, 2004, 03:19:11 PM »

Joshua: Go to "Outdoor Experiences" page 2 in the NEF area. I told a story about taking a Grizzly with one of my .35 Whelens.

As for where to shoot. I don't care if it's a Blackie or a Grizz, I still shoot to break the shoulder, both if possiable. That way he doesen't get away, and you don't have to go into the woods after him. I don't care what type of bear it is or how large of small it is, I don't like going into the woods after a wounded bear. My phylosophy, anchor him with a broken shoulder then worry about killing him.

Monster · « **Reply #9 on:** August 25, 2004, 03:14:21 PM »

This is as good a thread as any to pose the question that initially brought me to this board. I am an avid canoer on the west coast of Canada and am often portaging and paddling for two weeks at a time in bear country. I am not overly experienced with firearms and the only gun I own is a Marlin 30-30 lever action that I bought when I was twenty (14 years ago now) and I haven't fired the thing in seven years. I will be doing my best to photograph some Grizz in sept and want to add a firearm to my gear for this particular trip. I've always carried bear spray in the past and it will continue to be my secondary deterrent, my first being common sense and extreme caution but... because I know the grizz will still be out of the mountains at the time and place I'm going, I recently renewed my gun license (PAL) and took a firearms safety course.

My question is similar to the one already asked... which firearm would serve me best? My needs are quite different from that of a hunters but equally specific. I want something small enough, yet powerful enough to do the job and only at less than 50yrds. I am suffering information overload trying to find the answer in the multitude of hunting articles I've read on the net and of course... I want the perfect balance between recoil and power. (spose my ole 30-30 is out of the question). I'm My initial thoughts were to simply go with what I know and simply up the caliber, the Marlin 444. Afterwards it was suggested to me that the best fit for my needs was a 12 gauge shotgun with a folding stock so it could pack easily into my drybag. Afterwards again, I read somewhere that for grizz... a shotgun slug doesn't have the velocity to break bone which is what I want to do if the animal is that close and I have the ability to fire. Also this nozzler bullet I read about, is it designed to flatten out after it hits a big boned animal? I'm curious to know if my needs would be better served with a fully jacketed bullet that wouldnt flatten out at very close ranges?

Lastly is recoil... the reason I haven't simply decided on a Marlin 450 is that I dont think I could recover very quickly for a second shot with that much gun? I'm in good shape and at 5' 11", 180lbs I realize I could fire a so called big-bore riffle but, could I fire it accurately in a stress situation?

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #10 on:** August 25, 2004, 04:07:54 PM »

The .444 with 300 hardcast bullets is very good.

My preference is a 870 shotgun with a short slug barrel. I do not believe in Foster slugs. I have probably said more about their short commings than anyone here. Now.....give me a 3" Brenneke 1 3/8 oz. magnum slug and I feel comfortable. You can hardly scratch them with you thumb nail. They are made for hunting thick African game animals. I really feel safe with them.

As for a folding stock? Not me. If an attack comes it will probably come from so close that I haven't the time to unfold the thing. If the bear is far enough away that I have time to unfold it.......well then I probably had enough time to avoind the confrontation.

Grizz have been taken with the 30/30. But when your standing next to a salmon stream and you can smell the bears, hear the salmon splashing, your mind will quickly tell you that you need more gun.

Monster · « **Reply #11 on:** August 25, 2004, 08:13:46 PM »

Many thanks Dave, I too thought the Police 870 was the practical choice but the reason I was thinking of a folding stock is that after my drybags are loaded, nothing longer than 38" will fit in the canoe. Also I was told that 870's are not very controllable when fitted with a folding stock or pistol grip. A gun isn't the most important piece of equipment I need to take but is one of the most expensive and be it a river or morning condensation, it will stand a good chance of occasionally getting wet. Add the prospect of three day portages to a trip and I'm cutting the handle off my tooth brush to save a few ounces of weight I wont have to carry. Is it possible to have a light weight, short length, heavy hitting firearm thats tough enough to stand a few days of ill care in bad weather and still fire every time with tolerable recoil or is that only in Hollywood?

I chanced across this recoil-absorbing folding stock kit on a website and was wondering if it might do the trick, would sure take away allot of weight. Any opinions would be helpful and possibly save me some money on a gimmick?

http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Products/COPstock.htm

Cabin4 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 26, 2004, 04:41:29 AM »

Monster,

Marlin guide gun (1895g) in 45-70. Small compact and light weight. Loaded with 350 or 430 grain loads from Buffalo Bore Ammo Co.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#4570

A 30-30 is not a good choice for protection from a charging griz/brown. Its better then nothing but not enough. 444 marlin is ok but if your making a purchase, for near the same price go with the 45-70. I don't like the idea of a shot gun loaded with anything as griz bear defense. Black bear maybe, but not griz. Again, if your making a purchase, why not go with a proven griz bear killing cartridge. And since the 45-70 comes in a nice neat little package like the Marlin guide gun, its seems more appropriate that this is your better choice.

Monster · « **Reply #13 on:** August 26, 2004, 06:36:24 AM »

Hi Cabin, yes those marlin guide guns in 45-70 were something I had considered as it's listed 18 to 23flb recoil seemed reasonable enough to me however, when I compared it's load of say 400 grains... it's muzzel velocity is not much better than that of a 600 grain 12 guage slug... around 1300 feet per second. Given that I am only going by numbered specs I found on the net, is there something I'm missing that would make the guide gun a better overall choice? One good thing I've noticed... the guide gun would fit into my drybag with exactly half an inch to spare.

Cheers.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 26, 2004, 07:14:13 AM »

Yes, don't compare a slug gun to the 45-70. The 45-70 is a significantly better game killer. Slugs are not going to provide deep penetration like a 45-70 bullet. Especially large thick hide game like a griz.

Many here may push slugs as big game killers because of the stats on ballistics charts. In real stopping power, a slug is second fiddle to most big bore and med bore bullets of high quality construction. Although the charts look good on slugs, you will find that the manufactures don't push them as medicine for large game such as griz. Most companies push slugs as deer medicine and perhaps for small black bear. I would prefer a 30-06 with a 200 or 220 grain load for griz medicine over any slug, period.

Another source for second opinion will be a pro outfitter in griz bear country. I think you will find that these guys don't push slugs as griz bear stoppers and with good reason. Most pro's will look to 338 cal and up in high speed rifle rounds or big bore rounds like a 45-70, 458win, 416rig, ect.

The proven "package" of the guide gun is really geared towards your specific needs in mind. Marlin calls it a guide gun for good reason. They wanted this package to appeal to Pro Guides as their weapon to back-up their clients. When the client fails to hit the game (or hit well) and its coming in for its own kill on the client, the guides gun is now "up to bat". The small light weight, fast steering, quick cycling guide gun with a 458cal bullet of 400+ grains in a hard cast load will stop nearly anything ugly that mother nature can unleash.

I am not a pro guide nor a Marlin sales rep. But I do own a Guide gun and understand its characteristics and capabilities and place it much higher on the list than any slug gun.

Monster · « **Reply #15 on:** August 26, 2004, 09:20:14 AM »

Ok then, many thanks Cabin... I will take a more serious look at the Marlin Guide gun now. I understand they are collapsible too? Or is that only in one of the limited edition models?

Cabin4 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 26, 2004, 09:27:20 AM »

I am not familiar with a collapsible version by Marlin. There is a company out there that modifies the Marlin and remarkets it under their name in a "take down version" with its own case. Its called the co-pilot. It was designed for the bush pilot so he can easily store it in a small bush plane. If my memory serves me correct, I think they go for around $1,500. Significantly more than a off the shelf guide gun. I think I paid $425 for mine brand new 4 years ago.

Monster · « **Reply #17 on:** August 26, 2004, 10:00:45 AM »

Ah yes.. the co-pilot, thats the one I was thinking of. $1500.00 is not an amount I want to spend so I'll forget about that handy dandy firearm. Could I ask which of the four guide guns you own and how tollerable is the kick? I really like the pistol grip on my old marlin 30-30 but I see that if I want a pistol grip in 45-70 I'll have to live with an overall length of 40.5 inches, the extra being due to the longer barrel length. Do you see much of an advantage in having the 22.5 inch barrel aver the 18.5 inch one?

Cabin4 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 26, 2004, 10:10:07 AM »

I have the 1895g. It has the 18.5 inch ported bbl with the straight grip stock (no pistol grip).

I don't think the shorter bbl is an issue. Yes you may give up some velocity but not enough to be concerned about especially given the circumstances you want to use it under.

Using 300 grain nosler partion factory loads off the bench with a 4 power scope at 100 yards, I am consistently getting 1 inch to 1.25 inch groups.

I have killed 2 bears with this gun and same load.

Sourdough · « **Reply #19 on:** August 26, 2004, 08:08:09 PM »

Monster: In your situation, I'd carry a 12ga pump. In fact that is what most Alaskians carry in the summer for bear protection. As Dave said don't trust those old foster type slugs, go with something like the brenkie or one of the other saboted slugs. My wife carries a Mossburg 500 pump with a cut down synthetic stock (she's only 4'11") and an 18" factory barrel. She has carried this shotgun for 20 years and has had no problems with it. A lot of people look down on the Mossburg, but it's rugged and dependiable. That's what counts in my book. At close range nothing is as devistating as a 12ga. When you talk shotgun then rifle your comparing apples and oranges. Remember survival guns are for close work. Do you want to hit a bear with a 250 grain bullet or a 546gr (1 1/4oz) slug? I'll take the slug!

Cabin4 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 27, 2004, 03:18:30 AM »

546 grain slug may be a deterrent to a bear. Its like hitting him with a club. Shot gun slugs inheratly suffer from very poor sectional density leaving them way to soft for deep penatration on large heavy game.

If a larger yet heavy bullet is desired, then the 45-70 can be loaded with a 510 grain hard cast load that will go thru any critter, end to end. Not to mention that one can load one in the chamber and 4 in the tube. Thats 5 shots compared to 3 from the slug gun.

I would prefer to recomend a proven large, hevey dangourous game killing round like the 45-70 over a shot gun slug. Honestly, I don't know of anyone or any instance were someone has succesfully hunted griz with slugs. In addition, is there a pro guide that would recomend his client hunt griz with slugs ?

Sourdough · « **Reply #21 on:** August 28, 2004, 08:20:33 PM »

Cabin 4: That's why I don't recommend the old foster type slugs, they are too soft. Personnally I prefer the Dangerous Game Slug by BPI. Also some of the saboted slugs like the Brenke, and the Copper Solid, are pretty tough and will do the deep penetration.