Author Topic: Did they really cover all chambers with grease?? (Read 1714 times)

Big Paulie · « **on:** August 16, 2004, 07:37:13 AM »

Hey Guys,

I don't shoot cap and ball revolvers, but years ago my brother use to shoot a repro Navy, and he showed me that after loading each chamber, he had to cover each chamber hole with a thick coat of grease, to prevent accidental discharge of a chamber by a spark. What a mess! After six shots, you felt like you were holding a slippery slab of warm bacon in your hand.

I am a pretty big Civil War buff, and I just have to ask. Were these guys who were loading and shooting the original Navies and Armies back in those days also covering each chamber with grease? It is hard to believe, because after shooting the six rounds with the grease covered chambers, the revolver is a heck of a mess, and I can't believe they were dealing with such a mess while riding horses in combat.

Also, I know that they used pre-loaded "skins" cartridges during the war, that would allow them to use the paper covering as a wad. Were they taking the time to cover these loads with grease too?

As a final note, does anybody know if the printed or published loading instructions of Colt (for the Pocket or Navy or Army Revolvers) included an instruction to cover the loaded chambers with grease? If the accidental spark risk was a significant matter, one would assume that this would show up in the loading instructions when you bought a new revolver.

Thanks for all replies.

Big Paulie

mec · « **Reply #1 on:** August 16, 2004, 10:55:35 AM »

No where mentioned. Apparently that was spread by word of mouth

It looks like the grease over the chambers was a fairly early developement. Ive read that the American troops in Mexico were experienceing chain fires with their walkers that they attributed to slopping powder over onto the loaded chambers while loading. Chainfires often blew up walkers which were marginal in strength anyway and the articles Ive seen say they started smearing grease over the chamber fronts to kill the sparks.

Ramrod · « **Reply #2 on:** August 16, 2004, 11:10:23 AM »

All the Civil War stories I have read are in agreement that the soldiers did not cover the chamber mouths with grease, but it might have been a common civilian practice with rounballs. The G.I. ammo for these guns was a paper cartridge with a lubed bullet. The entire cartridge was rammed into the chamber, so no wadding either.

Gatofeo · « **Reply #3 on:** August 16, 2004, 11:10:55 AM »

The earliest reference I can find to the use of felt wads soaked in grease, between the ball and powder, is from Elmer Keith.
The late gun writer (1899 - 1983) wrote that his first sixgun was a Colt 1851 Navy, purchased about 1912. Keith said that the old timers in the Helena, Mont., area showed him how to load it.
At that time, Helena had a lot of Civil War veterans, from both sides, he wrote.
Actually, Keith doesn't specifically note that these veterans told him to use a greased wad but I suspect they did. If they didn't, that would place the practice into the 1920s or 1930s.
I've never seen a reference to the use of a greased wad in the Civil War. Some soldiers are known to have dripped beeswax or candlewax over the loaded bullets and caps but this seems to be more for waterproofing than for lubricating purposes.
As noted above, Colt's makes no mention of a lubricant over the ball or a greased felt wad under it.
Actually, I've never been convinced that multiple discharges result from the flame entering around the ball. I believe they stem from the flame entering around the percussion cap.
In the early 1970s I owned a cheap, brass-framed .44 that discharged multiply on three separate occasions. Each time, the ball was slathered in axle grease.
The first two times didn't damage the gun. The loads on either side of the hammer went off. The third time, the ball in line with the rammer went off and damaged the frame and rammer.
In 1983 I bought a Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy and have put an estimated 2,000 balls through it. Most of the time, it was loaded with greased, felt wads under the ball. I've never had a multiple discharge with it, or any other cap and ball I've owned.
Aside from poor workmanship or a revolver being worn to the point of danger, I just don't see how a flame or spark can find its way past a tightly fitted ball into the chamber.

mec · « **Reply #4 on:** August 16, 2004, 02:56:25 PM »

The only multiple discharge I have ever been near was from a brass navy like you describe. I seem to remember that he omitted the grease but it's very likely that it happened from the rear or else because one of the chambers might have been out of round enough to leave a channel next to the bullet.

Paterson prototypes had nipples enclosed in a perfect fire trap with nothing much separating one from the other. They also had a flash plate over the chambers that werent in line with the barrel. Colt is lucky he didn't explode himself.

Allen and Thurber didn't learn that you need barriers between the caps and some open air around the nipples. They continued to burry the priming area inside of the frame which probably accounts for the syncopated machine gun effect often produced by their pepperboxes.

Flint · « **Reply #5 on:** August 16, 2004, 03:02:21 PM »

The Civil war ammunition was in a paper cartridge, and grease was in the grease groove of the bullet, the soldier did not add any more. A Civilian loading loose powder and ball may or may not have overgreased the ball, but not if using combustible cartridges.

1860 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 17, 2004, 02:50:23 AM »

From what I've read, they were more afraid of moisture ruining the charge and/or primer. Originals have been found fully loaded and wax has been dripped over the nipples and chambers. I suspect that somewhere along the line, they discovered that this practice also reduced chain firing. I don't think a soldier, reloading under fire or combat conditions, often worried about it, he just wanted the gun to go bang as soon as he relaoded. But If he was in the rear and had the time, I'll bet he took the time to water proof it.

60

Big Paulie · « **Reply #7 on:** August 17, 2004, 08:01:12 AM »

Dear Guys,

Thanks for all of the replies. I now understand that they weren't covering the chambers with grease back in the 19th Century, but what are guys doing now?? Is there some sort of wonder wad that you guys are ramming down over top of the ball after it is loaded? Or, do you guys just not regard the multiple discharge as a material risk.

I note with interest that the Colt loading instructions that were posted didn't suggest even putting a wad or patch between the powder and the ball!

Our society was very very different in the 19th century. When a product or machine was sold, there was no concept of an implied warranty that they were safe for ordinary use. The prevailing view was that machines of any type were inherently dangerous, and if you chose to use one, then you did so at your own risk, even if they blew up or killed you from poor manufacture or design. These were the early days of the industrial revolution, and the attitude was, "Lose a finger or an eye? Well Heck, s--t happens!"

Big Paulie

HWooldridge · « **Reply #8 on:** August 17, 2004, 08:29:44 AM »

Big Paulie,

I load by putting powder, followed by greased felt wad, followed by the ball. Have fired thousands of shots this way with no chain fires. There is a general opinion that chain fires are due more to fire getting to the nipples of adjacent chambers rather than on the front of the cylinder, so good tight caps are also a must.

unspellable · « **Reply #9 on:** August 17, 2004, 11:31:38 AM »

It ain't some sort of wonder wad. It's A Wonder Wad (name brand) that I put UNDER each ball with my Ruger Old Army. Leaves the bore clean. I'm using Pyrodex. Never had a chain fire with it.

Years ago I did have a chain fire with some sort of replica, we had grease over the balls. There may be something to the theory that most chain fires pass from nipple to nipple.

MOGorilla · « **Reply #10 on:** August 18, 2004, 01:57:01 AM »

I too use a wonder wad twixt ball and powder. I find that I mainly get to shoot during extremes in temperature. Either the grease is in a liquid state from the missouri summer, or hard as a rock in missouri winter. These are the times I have free on weekends and such to get out and make smoke. I have had a chain fire, all cylinders were loaded with 25 grains of bp, a wonder wad and a 454 ball in my 1860 colt army, pietta. I fired and noticed the chamber next to the round that had been fired went too. When I investigated, I noted the cap on the erroneously fired chamber had fallen off, exposing the nipple. Both went. My lesson was never have a loaded chamber uncapped. Gun was fine, nerves were a little on edge rest of day.

xnmr53 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 18, 2004, 07:02:48 PM »

Big Paulie,

Another theory is that chain fires in a well made revolver are caused by loose or missing caps.

In case no one has ever told you, NEVER fire a revolver without capping all loaded chambers.

As far as greased wads, et al. I have been shooting a Remington 58 (Pietta) for some time now, and make my own paper cartridges. What I do for lube/flash protection is to dip the ball end of the cartridge into molten beeswax, up to where it just passes the equator of the ball. This firmly seals the paper to the ball, and provides lube and flash protection.

Dan Chamberlain · « **Reply #12 on:** August 20, 2004, 03:37:42 PM »

I have a picture of a Guerilla fighter with a pair of Remmys on his lap. You can see the loaded chambers and no grease....just balls.

Dan C

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #13 on:** August 20, 2004, 04:08:38 PM »

All the Cap and ballers I have known ,or read about use a over powder wad or greased cylinder,I use Crisco.

J.W.Neely · « **Reply #14 on:** August 21, 2004, 11:38:53 PM »

Quote

I have a picture of a Guerilla fighter with a pair of Remmys on his lap. You can see the loaded chambers and no grease....just balls.

I have that photo also.
But for sure, for the sake of the C&B to keep on shooting without things getting crusty and tight, some sort of lube on da balls sure keeps things ticking.

powderman · « **Reply #15 on:** August 22, 2004, 12:23:09 PM »

I have an 1860 colt pietta, my buddy has an 1858. Hispistol has to have the #10 caps, the #11s fall off. On my 60 the #10s are too small so I use the #11s. We use a 30 gr chg of fff and at first we slopped bore butter over the ball, what a mess. I finally found some real wool felt in a fabric shop. I cut the wads using a fired UNSIZED 45 LC case. I put about 100 or so in a tuna can and poured some lube on them making sure they all got soaked. The lube is 1 part beesewax, 1 part parrafin, and 1/2 part crisco or vegetable shortening. The last shoot we put 2 lubed wads between powder and ball. They worked great. The bbls were much easier to clean and neithere gun seized up, as his did before. I don't remember where I got the formula for the lube but it may have been from GATOFEOS posts, just don't remember.
I have several lbsof 4 FFFF and was wondering if anybody else has tried it in their 44s? I'd like to use it up. Any ideas. POWDERMAN. :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Gatofeo · « **Reply #16 on:** August 22, 2004, 05:52:56 PM »

The lubricant formula I have posted is:
1 part canning paraffin
1 part mutton tallow
1/2 part beeswax
All amounts are by weight, not volume.
I typically measure 200/200/100 grams of ingredients on a kitchen scale, then place them into a quart Mason jar.
I haven't tried Crisco or vegetable shortening as a substitute. Interesting to find that it works so well. But I'm a grumpy ol' desert cat and set in my ways so I'll stick with my formula.
But I'm pleased that you have had success with the well-greased wads. They sure keep the bore clean, don't they?

Ramrod · « **Reply #17 on:** August 23, 2004, 10:37:18 AM »

powderman, I never tried it in anything but a .31, but my old Lyman Black Powder Handbook from 1975 lists 37 grains of FFFFg with roundball as max in an 1860 Army Colt. Velocity is 960 fps, pressure 7,420 LUP. Interestingly, though is that with loads above 28 grains, FFFg shows HIGHER velocity! With your felt wads, you probably will use less powder, so you would be under max. I would think around 30 grains would be a sensible load.

powderman · « **Reply #18 on:** August 23, 2004, 12:04:36 PM »

GATOFEO. Seems to be a shortage of sheep around here.

. I now remember your formula, but there is no mutton tallow around here that I know of. The shortening worked well. I looked high and low for an old felt hat tono avail. A fabric shop in Elizabethtown Ky had the felt. It's thin so I used 2 wads. I did a search on your posts and have learned a lot, I thank you.
RAMROD. I'm going to try the 4ffff next time we make smoke. I'm hooked for sure. POWDERMAN. :grin: :grin:

HWooldridge · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2004, 03:12:01 AM »

Re felt hats: Don't know about other states but I can usually find a felt hat in Texas by going to Goodwill or an estate/garage sale. They are still quite common here for headwear so a little looking will usually turn up one. However, I can't bring myself to cut up a really good Stetson so I look for ones that are tattered or an off-brand.

Gatofeo · « **Reply #20 on:** September 01, 2004, 12:17:16 PM »

In the past six months, I've found three old cowboy hats at the local thrift store. All of them off-brands, and made of stiff felt.
But in the years prior to six months ago, I could never find a hat made of the proper felt. I had to buy Wonder Wads, then lubricate them with the melted grease recipe.
At about $6 per 100, Wonder Wads are rather pricey. Keep searching those thrift stores. I've looked at the felt in hobby stores but it's always so thin and limp that it's unsuitable (except if it's all you can get, as in your case).

Sheep tallow is sold by Dixie Gun Works. It's the only source I've found, though I live in the Utah desert and they raise sheep in this area from September to April or thereabouts. But by April, they load the sheep on trucks and take them God knows where. I hear they're taken to Ogden (John Browning's hometown) for slaughter or shearing.
I'll be in Ogden this Saturday and may visit the John Browning Gun Museum at the old train station, which is now an area museum.
I'd suggest you get hold of Dixie Gun Works. A 16-ounce tub is $3.50, so the price is certainly reasonable. Buy two, as I do, and you'll have plenty for years to come. It keeps without souring, as long as you keep it in a cool, dry place. I keep mine in the spare room, where temperatures range from 55 to 85 but are about 70 most of the time. Never had a problem with it spoiling.
<sniff> <sniff> ... at least, not so far.