Author Topic: Rifle of the week; Spanish FR8 (Read 2904 times)

1911crazy · « **on:** April 20, 2004, 02:28:43 AM »

The "SPANISH FR8"; It was made by "Fabrica De Armas La Coruna" its a bolt action rifle that the action resembles a mauser action in the receiver/bolt/safety area while the muzzle end resembles an HK. Its a short carbine and comes in 308 win/nato caliber and its parkerized. Its very accurate too 1" groups at 75 meters. The prices range between $200 to $300 for one. I found some pretty good pictures of it on Auction Arms. Please feel free to chime in with anything you can add to the info on this Rifle. BigBill
Go to; http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=5667444

S.S. · « **Reply #1 on:** April 22, 2004, 03:21:46 PM »

Well ya'll picked a winner to talk about!
a winner in the sense that all I know about them is that
they look like a model 1916 with the stock cut off and
some sort of grenade launching aparatus built on!
I have heard that they were Created for the Spanish police
(Civil Guard or something like that)
I have never seen a "LIVE" one
and
Thats about it.

Rojelio · « **Reply #2 on:** April 22, 2004, 07:18:51 PM »

I owned one once. Sold it at a gunshow like a dumb@$$. It was veeeery accurate.It is a modified Spanish mod. 43 which is a 98 action. Not the quality of a German action, but, it functioned flawlessly. Rojelio

1911crazy · « **Reply #3 on:** April 22, 2004, 11:50:07 PM »

This gun caught my eye back in the late 70's it was in a rack sticking up and the muzzle end looked awesome but then i seen it was a bolt action and the price was a little pricey so I bought a 98 mauser and a m39 mosin instead. On another site they called it a training rifle. It was used in the Spanish civil war by both sides. BigBill

Big Blue · « **Reply #4 on:** April 23, 2004, 01:49:59 PM »

The Fusil Refromando No. 8, was an update to the FR-7. The FR-7 was a 1916 Mauser version, with a bent bolt handle, and a two lug bolt. The FR-8 Has a 3 lug bolt, and most have the straight bolt handle. It's a 1943 action and it's name, Fusil Refromando means modified musket.
Don

Bigdog · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2004, 05:45:03 AM »

Origianally the FR8 was a transition rifle, to ready the troops for the introduction of the CETME battlerifle. The M43 Mauser action was mated to the CETME barrel, triple tree and a dummy "gas tube" which carried the cleaning it. It will take the standard CETME bayonet too - looks wicked with the bayo in place! The four-position rear sight is somewhat similar to that of the CETME, but not the same. A rotating wheel with vee notch and three apertures, instead of CETME's "paddlewheel" sight.
I paid $220 for mine, though many now are going for $250 to $350, if you can find one.
Mine has the bent bolt handle, though most FR8's have the straight handle.
Later, the FR8 was issued to border guards, military police and other non-frontline types. I saw some on the news, still in use by the Rebels/Government troops (who could tell, both wore civvies?) in the recent unpleasentness in Haiti.

Mine is quite accurate with good milsurp ammo - I prefer the South African and Venezuelan CAVIM - and shoots well with commercial 150-grain loads (Rem/UMC and Winchester). The 180 grain loads kick like a mule, though! :wink:

RB Rooson · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2004, 10:01:56 AM »

Now, that is one ugly rifle............

grendel · « **Reply #7 on:** June 17, 2004, 04:58:17 PM »

I bought one 2 years ago. It trades with my Win94/44mag as my truck gun. I like it, I would not mind getting another if Big-5 ever got them in at the price I bought the first one for. $179.

Take a look at http://members.rogers.com/snidey/fr-8.html
and http://www.gunsworld.com/spain/cetmefr8_us.html as well as http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/spanishinquisition/index.asp

Grendel

Molon Labe

Big Paulie · « **Reply #8 on:** June 28, 2004, 02:15:45 PM »

Dear Guys,

I am very surprised to see that nobody is talking about the extreme danger of these rifles. The FR-8s are accidents (bad ones) waiting to happen.

The facts are:

1. The actions that are used in these Spanish Made rifles were originally made to handle the pressures of the 8mm mauser miltary round. These are low pressure rounds compared to modern ammo. Maybe someone could look this up, but it is probably just in the high 40,000 psi range or the low 50,000 psi range. That pressure rating is what the action was designed to handle

2. The 7.62 CETME round is NOT the same as the 7.62 Nato round and it is NOT the same as the .308 Winchester. They are all identical as far as external size and shape (so they will all chamber in the same rifles) but they are very different rounds, that operate at very very different pressures.

3. The 7.62 CETME round was designed as a machine-gun round after World War II, in the transition days when people were trying to come up with shorter cartridges for automatic weapons. The Spanish Government adopted the CETME round in some machine guns.

4. The 7.62 CETME round operates at about the same pressure as the 8mm mauser round, or perhaps maybe a little higher. The Spanish Government, wanting to quickly convert some rifles to the new round, took their old Mauser Actions, removed the 8mm mauser barrels, and added barrels for the 7.62 CETMA round. (Notice that the barrels are stamped "7.62" They are not stamped "7.62 Nato.")

5. A short time later, the 7.62 Nato round was adopted by Nato. These will fit in the FR-8. But guess what, they generate significantly higher pressure than the 8mm mauser or the 7.62 CETMA. They generate around 54,000 to 55,000 psi of pressure in the action. So now, by firing the 7.62 Nato round in the rifle, you are firing a round that generates significantly higher pressure than these cheap Spanish made actions were designed to handle for the 8mm mauser.

6. It gets worse. Contrary to popular belief. The 7.62 Nato round is NOT the same cartridge as the .308 Winchester. True, they have the exact external shape and size, and will both fit in the same chambers. BUT, the Nato round has a relatively thick brass cartridge, so that it can be fired in machine guns without tearing apart. In contrast to this, Winchester specifically developed the .308 Winchester to be a hunting round, pushing as much powder and pressure as they could. In order to do this, they designed the .308 Winchester to have a thinner brass shell, so that it can hold more powder and achieve higher pressure than the 7.62 Nato.

7. The result? The .308 Winchester standard SAAMI pressure is about 65,000 psi, as compared to the 7.62 Nato standard pressure of about 55,000 psi. Think about that for a second!

7. End result, the FR-8s used old (not new) mauser actions that were specifically designed to handle the 8mm mauser cartridge and its mild pressure in the low 50,000 psi range. When you fire a .308 Winchester round in these rifles, you are firing a round that produces 65,000 psi, or 30% more pressure than the action was designed to handle. In reality, every time you fire a .308 Wiinchester in this rifle, you are firiing what amounts to a Proof Round.

8. Mechanical result? Get on the gun boards and research the FR-8. There are lots and lots of reports of the FR-8s developing excessive headspace after firing only a box or two of .308 Winchester rounds in them. (Gee, what a surprise.) And I saw at least two reports of the actions blowing. (Gee, what a surprise.)

9. The fact that some importers advertise these as being for "the potent .308 Winchester" is criminal. They weren't even designed for the 7.62 Nato. (Again, check the stamping on the barrel. You won't see Nato anywhere.)

10. They may look like really strong rifles, but they are not. I would never fire anything more powerful than the 7.62 Nato military round in them, and even then, I would be watching for high pressure signs.

11. As for shooting the .308 Winchesters, remember, you are putting an iron chamber against your face, and under your right eye, in which a 65,000 psi explosion is occurring, under circumstances in which the chamber is more than 60 years old, and was designed to handle 50,000 psi of pressure, and was built before or during WWII by some foundary in Spain!!!!!

Sorry for the bad news! This is all well known to Mauser fans.

Big Paulie

1911crazy · « **Reply #9 on:** June 29, 2004, 12:19:02 AM »

Big Paulie point well made there were a lot of rifles that were changed over to 308 that the safety is questionable. Thanks for your input. BigBill

strider72 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 05, 2004, 08:20:59 AM »

I have to disagree with one thing. I have fired Norinco and Cavim 7.62 NATO that was hotter than any commercial .308 Win. As far as the headspace dilemma, from what I understand the headspace was already excessive in most of the FR8s and other Spanish arms.

Tbaus · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2004, 07:45:47 PM »

Sorry, gotta disagree with Big Paulie... We had this very discussion on another board. The FR8 was designed for 7.62 NATO, not Cetme. One Spanish member of the board got out his military FR8 manual and reproduced it for all the board members to see that it specified 7.62x 51 NATO. I wish people would quit passing this old wives tale around. I know of no FR8 castrophic failures, but I can get you a picture of a Glock blowing up if you like... I shoot .308 rounds in mine, all the time with no signs anywhere of over pressure. It is a really nice, fairly rare, collectable firearm. Good shootin'...

txpete · « **Reply #12 on:** August 02, 2004, 05:42:44 AM »

I have had a few FR-8's and never a problem.I shoot handloads reloaded mid scale.these are great rifles and have a very strong action based on the large ring 98 action.the same action some gunsmith's build 300 win mag on.
the FR-7 is based on the 93 action which are not as strong as the 98 action and PSI should be watched and pass on comm. 308 loads.
anyone that compares the fr-8 to the fr-7 hasn't a clue...or just plan stupid or both.
pete

Big Paulie · « **Reply #13 on:** August 02, 2004, 10:41:12 AM »

Dear Guys,

No question that the FR-8 is lots stronger than the FR-7 action. But, it would be interesting for someone to take an FR-8 action down to a good custom rifle builder, tell him you want to use it to build a custom 300 Winchester Mag., and let me know what he says.

Best Regards,
Big Paulie

35Whelen · « **Reply #14 on:** August 08, 2004, 04:44:26 PM »

Here's my FR-8: http://www.setel.com/~maxwells/mausercentral/gungallery22.htm

For as many years as these FR-8's have been on the market, I've heard the warnings about how weak they were. Hogwash. I've hundreds of hunting loads through mine with nar a hiccup and headspace is still fine. My original load used a hefty dose of IMR4064 to run a 165 gr. Remington PSPCL right at 2700 fps from the FR-8's 18 1/2" barrel. Kicked pretty good, so I switched to a 150 gr. Remington at 2750 fps. These oads are in addition who-knows-how-many test loads, the loads I used in High-Power matches, etc.
My current favorite load(s) use a Lyman 311291 180 gr. RN & 173 gr. RNHP with 20 and 22 grs. respectively of Alliant 2400 . My 13 year old daughter has killed 3 deer, with 3 shots, in the last 3 seasons. I absolutely love this rifle and carry it far more than any of the other 12 or 13 centerfire rifles I own.
FWIW,
Greg

Big Paulie · « **Reply #15 on:** August 09, 2004, 10:02:38 AM »

Dear 35 Whelen,

Glad to hear you got a good one. I think the basic issue here is that these FR-8 actions are not 98 Mauser actions that were made in Germany or under strict German scrutiny. These actions were made in Spain, in various Spanish arsenals, during the 1930s, when things were really up in the air, with the Spanish Revolution and the rise of facism under Franco.

Therefore, I think that there is a very wide variety of quality in the actions and components.

You are lucky, because you probably got a good action made at a good time.

Best Regards,

Big Paulie

35Whelen · « **Reply #16 on:** August 09, 2004, 12:51:32 PM »

Paulie, actually mine is stamped "Cal. 7.62" which tells me, unless it was stamped long after it was made, that it had to be made in the 50's, and it seems like I remember seeing a date in that range stamped on it somewhere. I have several...I dunno, 6 or 8 '98 Mausers including the FR-8 and none of them were made in Germany. All of them are of similar quality. Oh sure the Venezualan and VZ24 are quite a bit smoother and better finished. The main difference in the FR-8 is that it is Parkerized so the finish isn't quite as "pretty". Other than that, in function and form it is identical to any of my other '98's. BTW, all my Mausers are custom rifles chambered for "modern" high pressure cartridges and I load them as such.
I've read plenty of threads of FR-8's disentigrating when fired with modern ammo, but despite countless by me and throngs of others, no one, and I mean no one has been able to turn up one shred of proof such as a picture, an article, a report or even a firsthand account of an incident. And funny thing is, it seemed these threads were posted by 2 or 3 people on several different forums. I can assure you that if my FR-8 were of questionable metallury/quality I would have experinced either cracked bolt lugs or bolt lug setback, and the resulted headspace problems, long ago given the loads I've fired in mine.
I honestly don't think that the people that designed/manufactured these rifles took into account the supposed lower pressure of the round for which they were chambered when they heat treated these actions. That makes no sense at all to me.
FWIW,
Greg

Big Paulie · « **Reply #17 on:** August 10, 2004, 12:34:09 PM »

Dear Greg,

The actions on the FR-8s were all old mauser actions made many years earlier. They were not newly manufactured in the 1950s. The FR-8s were created by taking old 8mm Mauser (made in Spain) rifles, yanking the barrels and stocks off of them, and installing a new barrel and new wooden stock that simulated the size and weight of an assault rifle. (Thus the crazy tube sticking out below the barrel.) When this was done, the new barrels were stamped "7.62" because they were chambered for the 7.62 CETME round, which was invented a few years earlier than the 7.62 Nato round and was adopted by Spain. The reason that these pseudo assault rifles were made up by Spain was to serve as interim training rifles for the troops, during the transition from mauser bolt actions to modern (full auto) assault rifles.

All of this is well documented. Please see such books as Olsen, on Mausers.

The actions used in these rifles were designed, engineered and heat treated for the 8mm mauser round, which is a cartridge with a psi pressure in the low 50,000 range. Again, the .308 Winchester has a psi range of 66,000 psi (this was just increased last year from 65,000 psi.)

Sadly, you are not correct that the safety factor is a mere rumor started by 1 or 2 people on the boards. If you have AOL, and can go back on the gunboard about 3 or 4 years ago, under Mausers, you will see alot of information on this and a picture of a blown FR-8 action.

In short, these FR-8 rifles were not designed, manufactured or heat-treated to handle the 7.62 Nato or the .308 Winchester. You've got to remember that when countries, particularly third world countries like Spain, need a bunch of rifles quick, they just make them up with what they have.

From your posting, I understand that you are hand-loading moderate .308 Winchester rounds to fire in your rifle. I believe that the conventional wisdom is that people feel pretty safe by down-loading the .308 loads, to the .300 Savage range.

I hope this informatioin helps.

Best Regards,

Big Paulie

35Whelen · « **Reply #18 on:** August 10, 2004, 01:22:11 PM »

Paulie, I've read the posts on AOL 90% of them being from one "Kyrie Ellis" as I recall. I'll certainly not get into an arguement regarding Mausers. I do not doubt that there is a picture of a Mauser, maybe even an FR-8 that has been blown up. Heck, I PERSONALLY witnessed the disentigration of a beautiful commercial Mauser 25-06. To this day, neither I nor the owner know why it happened as he had already fired several handloads out of the box of ammo.
I believe age has little to do with the quality of most Mauser actions, rather, the period in which they were built is more important. For example, those actions and rifles built under the stress and demands od war are notoriously poorer in quality than those built during peace ( you know, the 20's & 30's?). Maybe if you poll several custom builders, they'll verify this. As I said, I own several rifle built on '98 actions and I load them all with max or near max loads.
What you missed in my last post is that I load and have loaded my FR-8 with very warm loads. A 165 gr. bullet at 2700 fps out of an 18 1/2" barrel is ANYTHING but a mild load. Trust me on that one. I'd dare not divulge the charge of IMR4064 as some knucklehead will cram it into a 308 with a short throat and blow it to bits. Also, the 150gr. load is not a light load either.
I appreciate your input, but you'll not convince me that my rifle is a danger. My experience is firsthand rather than from reading posts on AOL. This is my last post on the subject. :grin:

Big Paulie · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2004, 07:41:09 AM »

Dear Greg,

No offense taken and I hope I didn't rankle anybody. I'm always glad to learn something new and hear from experienced shooters. The great thing about the boards is that we can have a free-flow of information. Then we can individually check it, analyze it, and match it against our own experiences.

Good shooting!

Big Paulie

Steve Ruchala · « **Reply #20 on:** August 31, 2004, 10:00:36 AM »

Hi Guys. I have a question about these mausers. I bought one several years ago(maybe10). It has since been sporterized. When i bought it it was listed as a 1916 spanish mauser. it looked nothing like the one pictuered above. it has a 21 inch steped barrel. there was no provision for a gas tube or the psudo gas tube people spoke of. The cleaning rod was under the barrel. The stock went almost to the end of the bareland did not have a pistol grip, it was straight. The rear site was mounted on the barrel forward of the receiver. It is chambered in .308, has a bent bolt handle. There is a 3 position saftey at the rear of the bolt. the bolt has 2 lugs. What do I have? The gune is very accurate and i would like to keep it.

Jack Crevalle · « **Reply #21 on:** August 31, 2004, 11:16:56 AM »

Die, thread, die!

35Whelen · « **Reply #22 on:** August 31, 2004, 12:21:27 PM »

Quote

Hi Guys. I have a question about these mausers. I bought one several years ago(maybe10). It has since been sporterized. When i bought it it was listed as a 1916 spanish mauser. it looked nothing like the one pictuered above. it has a 21 inch steped barrel. there was no provision for a gas tube or the psudo gas tube people spoke of. The cleaning rod was under the barrel. The stock went almost to the end of the bareland did not have a pistol grip, it was straight. The rear site was mounted on the barrel forward of the receiver. It is chambered in .308, has a bent bolt handle. There is a 3 position saftey at the rear of the bolt. the bolt has 2 lugs. What do I have? The gune is very accurate and i would like to keep it.

The doomsayers will tell you it's gonna blow up and cause more damage than the nuke at Nagasaki. I do not own one of these, but one of my closest hunting buddies bought one and I personally fired some genuine US 7.62 military ammo as well as Winchester .308 factory ammo through it. If you're concerned about the strength and you reload, keep your loads in the 300 Savage range. Use common sense and watch for signs such as protruding primers, case stretching at the case head, etc.