30-30 ack imp ?

[Csbishop]

Does any shoot this round I would like to know how much more power it has over the standard 30-30.
Thanks

[cbagman]

:grin: Ask Kyode about it.. He loves the 30-30 AI.. from cbagman

[KYODE]

love it!.....14" barrel
110's at 2700fps
125's at 2600+
130's at 2500++
135's at 2500-
150's at 2350+

mine is the factory 14" 30-30AI. very accurate also!
there is a good article on it at www.handgunhunt.com in the article section.

[Shortgun]

Atta boy Kyode...I bet ya just talked another one into that old 30-30AI..how many that make now?
shortgun

[Wally]

After following Kyote and SD Hunter's discussions of 30-30 AI, I found an old rechamber of  a 6 groove super 14 and have been suitably impressed
with accuracy and ease of loading, so much so I found a 30-30 AI carbine barrel at Ed's and just received it today.
My only game bagged so far with the super 14 was a coyote foolish enough to answer my FoxPro. Not sure what I'll use the carbine for as I prefer the short ones.  But, I found some really nice old Contender walnut with figure and checkering and just could'nt resist it, as I had a spare action laying around not earning it's keep. The 30-30 AI modest recoil and accuracy have certainly impressed me , I am not one to have a lot of calibers and the AI fills the bill for a lot of different hunts. I can't wait to get out this weekend and see what the carbine will do with loads already worked up.

[KYODE]

ol shortgun is sharp on the 30-30AI. he has extensive experience with it, and got me hooked. i like him

[Graybeard]

Let me play devil's advocate here for a moment to bring this discussion back to reality.

The .30-30 AI is a nice round. I really do like it. BUT it is NOT magic. I measured the difference in case capacity of several cases before and after fire forming. You gain at MOST 10% extra and that's being very optimistic. The laws of physics say you can gain 1% in velocity for ever 4% of extra powder you burn given equal pressures. So let's give it the full 10% extra powder tht the increased case capacity allows. That means you add 2.5% more velocity at same pressures.

So 2.5% of what?  Even in a rifle with 20" barrel we're talking velocities of only 2300 fps for the old .30-30. Add another 2.5% to that and it adds ONLY 57.5 fps. From a handgun it adds less still.

So do I doubt that Kyode got 2350 fps from a 14"? Nope.

The single biggest problem with this round is lack of RELIABLE and MODERN loading data that has been pressure tested. There is practically none and most of the data out there was developed for lever rifles. And it is old as the hills.

If you push both the old original .30-30 and the .30-30 AI to precisely the same pressures you'll gain at MOST 50-100 fps and that's being VERY optimistic. Yet many are claiming (and no doubt getting) gains of 200-400 fps. HOW??? By increasing pressure to unsafe and perhaps dangerous levels.

There is just NO reliable pressure tested data out there for this round. You're on your own with it really. Oh sure you'll find a plethora of folks who'll give you some. I got some with my first barrel supposedly worked on up some computer program that "promises" it follows the Powley Computer model. Some of it showed velocities 400 fps faster than a .30-30 and showed powder increases of 25% or more even tho the case capacity only increases at most 10% after fire forming.

That same barrel came with a fair supply of loaded ammo with the load data and what was supposed to be the chrono readings and their accuracy. HA, what a laugh. Some claimed to be MOA shot over 6 MOA in same barrel. Velocities were as much as 300 fps less than the data indicated over my Oehler 35P. Some blew primers on first firing. Some wouldn't even fit into the chamber.

So my advice is if you just gotta have one go for it. It is a nice round. BUT don't go in blindly and don't go in with false assumptions regarding the magic it possesses. It has none. The same laws of physics apply to it as to all other rounds.

[SD Handgunner]

Does any shoot this round I would like to know how much more power it has over the standard 30-30.
Thanks

Yes I do have and enjoy a .30-30 Ackley Improved Contender Handgun. As per the difference in case capacity (while I have not performed this test for myself) I have an article in front of me that states the following:

I worked with Remington Brass. The original .30-30 Winchester Brass weighed in at between 130 to 132 grains, as did the same cases after fireforming. When filled to the base of the neck with water and weighed, the .30-30 Winchester Cases held 37 to 38 grains of water. After fireformin them into .30-30 Ackley Improved cases they held 50 to 50.5 grains of water. Dividing 50.5 grains by 38 grains equals an increase of 32.8% more capacity for the .30-30 Ackley Improved versus the .30-30 Winchester.

The reason for the increase in case capacity is that the body is blown out to have less taper (increasing case capacity), and in addition the shoulder is also moved farther forward (also increasing case capacity). This new shape also does a lot to reduce Case Head Thrust.

In PO Ackley's Handbook for Shooters and Handloaders there is a very interesting article on Case Head Thrust pertaining to the .30-30 AI Cartridge.

In his tests, Ackley actually unscrewed the barrel from a Model 94 chambered for the .30-30AI ONE turn and fired a couple of cartridges (His MAX Loads according to the article). Upon firing these cartridges the dimension from the case head to the shoulder did not change, ultimately there was no case stretching, and the only thing noticeable was the primer backed out of the cartridge case.

He then repeated the test with the barrel unscrewed ONE and ONE HALF turns out, and TWO FULL turns out, again creating excessive headspace.

Then Ackley screwed the barrel back in, and removed the locking lugs from the Model 94 Action, and fired the gun with only pressure on the Finger Lever holding the action closed. Again the case showed no signs of stretching, but rather just the primer backed out of the cartridge case.

In the end Ackley summarized that because of the straightened side walls of the cartridge case, and the sharper shoulder, the cartridge case was gripping the chamber walls so tightly that it was producing MINIMUM Case Head Thrust.

Historical Notes taken from the Reloading Bench:

The .30-30 Winchester is one of the most popular sporting cartridges ever produced. It is the standard American deer cartridge, but its popularity is due more to the light, handy carbines that chamber it than to its ballistics. Many hunters have wished that the .30-30 Winchester  had a little more oomph. The 30-30 Improved does just that by providing an additional 200 to 300 fps within the working pressure limits of the standard Model 94 Winchester action, which is 38,000 CUP maximum. There are various versions of the 30-30 Improved, but the Ackley version is the most popular. The exact date of introduction is not know, but was probably sometime in the early 1950's or perhaps even earlier.

The loads I am using in my .30-30 AI Contender Barrel simply fall out of the chamber when the action is opened and the barrel rotated upwards at a 45 degree angle. I also see no signs of the impression of the rimfire firing pin on my primers (which is an indicator of pressures above 45000 CUP I'm told. The charge I am using to drive 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips to a chronographed 2683 FPS from my Super 14 .30-30 AI Super 14 Contender Barrel is 13.3% more than the load I used in Super 14 .30-30 Winchester Contender Barrels (and max according to several different loading manuals) with the same bullet. For the record my .30-30 AI Load produces 283 FPS more velocity than when loading the same Bullet and Powder in .30-30 Winchester Cases (fired in my .30-30 AI as a fireform load).

No I do not have pressure testing equipment, or a test lab. However I have been handloading for more years than I care to admit to, and have been handloading for Contenders for all but a couple of those years. As such in all of those years I have never once stretched a Contender Frame, and when using .30-30 Based Cartridges have never had so much as a hint of sticky extraction, but rather fired cartridges fall right out of the chamber when the muzzle is raised slightly.

Is my .30-30 AI operating at excessive pressures ? I do not know, but I do believe they are not to hot for my particular barrel.

SD Handgunner

[Hopalong7]

We had this same disscussion about 2 1/2- 3 years ago and when I mentioned that with bullets of 150gr or less I was matching the performance of my 309JDJ GB quickly offered caution.  I heeded, backed off and slowly eased forward again and at a slightly less charge now match KYODE's numbers right down the line.  I read Mr Ackley's books religiously and everything else I could find.  Like SD Handgunner I read of case volumes increasing 30%+.  I did the water capacity test myself (w/ WIN brass) and got less than 10%( I forget the exact number ) .  Was very puzzled to say the least.  Finally, I realized that who ever I was reading(this was NOT Mr. Ackley) was measuring water volume to the base of the neck only.  My test were done, as I'm throughly convinced they should be, measuring the entire case including the neck.  Now after all that jibberish,  I agree with the rest of you, this is one fine round in a Contender and I love mine, BUT it needs to used with a little common sense and approached cautiously.  I guess you could say the same about any round though.  GOOD SHOOTIN', Walt  :-D  :-D  :-D

[tnwill]

SD, I agree. I don't pay alot of attention to the published pressure data. Every barrel is as much an individual as you and I, and a safe load in my barrel may show excessive chamber pressure when fired in another identical barrel. For this reason I never use reloads that I didn't reload myself. I looked through all of my reloading data from SSK and have yet to find any published pressure data. I'm sure it has been done, but it is not on the data sheets that I have from SSK. Does this mean that we shouldn't be using them? I don't think so. An experienced reloader must pay attention to what his firearm is telling and use a little common sense.

[KYODE]

:shock: well.....what do i say?  excellent discussion


i guess i could add a few useless comments :wink:

for one thing.....i think everyone here is right. any cartridge you reload should be used cautiously.......and the one thing that the 30-30AI lacks is extensive pressure tested data. i wish the powder/bullet/loading manual people would take care of that.
i also have no clue as to what pressures are running in my 30-30AI loads, but then again i have very little clue as to what actual pressures are running in any of the calibers i shoot.
i tend to think that improved cases do give less breech thrust, and may also be harder to pick up on early pressure signs, such as brass stretching.
my load of 130gr hornady ssp's at 2588fps appear to be fine in my barrel so far. it took two does last season, and will likely see more deer hunting this year. it is surely one of my favorite barrels!

a note of interest........several handgun barrels in 30-30AI, from custom to factory, to rechambers, even with varying twist rates, have achieved very similar results, while being reloaded, shot, and analyized(spelling?) by several different people from different areas of the country. doesn't really provide any actual pressure ideas, but interesting nonetheless.

i did shoot some(couple boxes) of factory standard 30-30 ammo in my 14" barrel to form cases, and chronograph last year. winchester 150gr hp's were at 2230fps. i may try some more as time goes.

only thing i can say is, i highly recommend the 30-30AI for your contender hunting fun, but above all be cautious in reloading it, and any other cartridge you shoot.

 :?  did i say i love my 30-30Ackley Improved barrel?.......i may have to shoot it some today. :-D

[Graybeard]

Don't misunderstand my comments guys. I love the .30-30 AI. Just trying to point out its weaknesses and the falicies surrounding it as well as its good points.

Anyone measuring ONLY to base of neck for capacity is not following standard procedures and is NOT telling the real story as it relates to pressures. You must fill to top of neck both before and after. That I've done and with same case I can get only about 10% increase. No more.

The Laws of Physics are immutible. They are hard and fast. Unlike us they don't change.

What I'd love to see done is to take a new .30-30 barrel, hook it up to an Oehler PBL and fire a bunch of factory ammo in it to establish a base line pressure reading. Then have the barrel converted to an AI chamber and again bring the loads up to that pressure level establish by the .30-30 factory loads and see what the increase in velocity is in the very same barrel at the very same pressure levels.

If I owned the PBL I'd do this but for sure I can't afford one of them. But until someone does this we'll only be guessing.

Yup I agree with the comment above somewhere about the straighter case walls adhering to chamber better and thus reducing back thrust some. This "should" theoritically allow safe use of a bit higher pressures. The problem with this is we have no way to know what the pressures are or how much more is safe.

So a truly fine round goes mostly unnoticed and little used because of the lack of sound pressure based data for it. Real shame. Clearly it is a better round than the old .30-30. How much better is a question not yet answered by anyone based on pressure tested data to my knowledge.

[SD Handgunner]

I using the dimensions I have on the cartridge drawings for both the .30-30 AI and the .30-30 Winchester, I used these dimensions to calculate the difference in case capacity to the base of the shoulder. According to my figures I came up with a 11% increase in capacity for the .30-30 AI over the .30-30 Winchester.

Given that, all things being equal yes it would appear that my load I am using in my .30-30 AI would produce more pressure than a standard .30-30 Winchester. However another important thing to consider is due to the lessened body taper of the .30-30 AI, and the sharp 40 degree shoulder of the .30-30 AI, according to many different tests I have read (by many different authors) the actual thrust agains the standing breach of the firearm is considerablly less than with the parent cartridge.

To take it a step further, JD Jones has written on more than one occasion that this thrust against the standing breach is what stretches Contender Frames, not the actual pressure, thus the reasoning behind the theory whereby smaller diameter cartridge cases can be used in the Contender at higher chamber pressures than larger diameter cartridge cases.

Like has been already stated, what may appear to be safe in one barrel, may not be in a totally different barrel. In addition to what Kyode stated, there have been a number of us that have fired the same exact loads in several different barrels of different rifling configurations and rifling twists, all while achieving very similar results in regards to Velocity and ease of case extraction, as well as other indicators.

If you choose to aquire a .30-30 AI, enjoy the cartridge as in my opinion it is a good one, but use your own judgement in developing your own loads for it.

SD Handgunner

[Graybeard]

Yup Larry, I agree with all you said there.

Perhaps it would be good to once again remind folks just why I am so cautious on such matters.

I'm the fellow who blew up, yeah literally exploded, a .44 Mag factory barrel with a BOOK charge. The .44 Mag is a pretty much perfectly straight wall round so is even superior to the various AIs in that regard.

Many long years ago when finding brass was a bit of a problem in my area and a lot of folks didn't reload so just dumped their cases on the ground I picked them up. NEVER EVER AGAIN.

This time I picked up a couple of S&W headstamped .44 Mag cases. Might have been more but only two were involved in this story. I was loading a standard book charge of H2400 I believe it was. A MAX charge but a BOOK MAX charge over a 240 grain cast bullet. When I dropped the charge from my measure I did notice those two S&W cases appeared a lot more full than any of the others. So I dumped the powder back into the measure and dropped them again. Same appearance. So I again dumped them and inspected the cases. Nothing obvious. No foreign matter in them. So I said in my innocence, "what the heck, it's a book load". Ah the innocence of youth.

I took them to the range and was firing my TC Contender 14" bull barrel with Pachmayrs front and rear. When the first of these two S&W headstamp rounds was fired lots of bad things happened. My hands kinda stung and my ears rang even tho I was wearing hearing protection. My Pachmayr forend flew at least 25'-30' ahead of me down range. My Contender dropped open.

I looked at it wondering what the heck had just happened. I gathered up my parts and did a thorough inspection which revealed I'd blown up a factory Contender barrel with a standard book load. I returned the barrel to TC with an explaination as to what happened and they replaced the barrel with no charge. I did have to buy a replacement adapter for the Pachmayr forend as it is now in two pieces and yeah I think somewhere around here I still have both pieces.

So while in theory it is good to talk about an AI case with straigher walls giving less back thrust and it is good that many folks have used a load in their barrels and it "appeared" safe to them, folks that don't mean it is safe when you use that same powder charnge in YOUR BARREL WITH YOUR COMPONENTS. Trust me, been there done that and have the exloded barrel experience to remind me of it.

So yeah maybe I am not more cautious than many. But it ain't fun when one of them becomes a grenade in your hand. Not fun at all.

[SD Handgunner]

Yea GB I guess that would make me cautious also.

I had a friend that had a similar experience with a .44 Magnum (S&W 29) using 240gr. Hard Cast SWC's loaded with 2400. His problem was not the cartridge cases (they were all from the same lot, as were the bullets), but rather the powder. He was loading one night and ran out of powder. Since his powder measure was all set up, he ran down town and picked up a new can of 2400. (Now for the mistake) he never checked the powder measure with a scale, but rather just dumped the powder in and started loading. When he got to the box of ammo loaded with the new powder at the farm the next day it it was eye opening. No he didn't blow up his Model 29, but rather we had to pound the empties out of the chambers hitting the ejector rod with a hammer. He immediately sent the Model 29 off to S&W with an explaination. The end result was there was no damage to the gun (according to S&W), and he was extremely lucky.

In regards to my .30-30 AI, I am not sure if makes as much difference as a former poster on this site would lead us to believe or not, but my barrel is has the old style 6 Land & Groove Rifling Configuration with a twist rate of 1 in 14". I do believe the slower twist rate may well have an effect on pressure, but do not know this as fact. All I really know for sure is my fired cases simply fall out of the chamber when I elevate the muzzle upward to approximately a 45 degree angle. I do not look at any one pressure indicator, but rather prefer to look at them all as a whole.

According to some people I have spoken with they feel the sharp 40 degree shoulder has more to do with reducing case head thrust than does the minimum body taper, but using both together is the key. The theory is that the sharp shoulder creates a less surface area for the back thrust of the cartridge case in the chamber. These same people have also said that an Ackley Improved type of case produces less case head thrust than do straight wall cartridges. Again I have no way of proving this, but going off of the experience of others.

Since I obtained my .30-30 AI barrel I have spoken with well over a dozen shooters that have a barrel chambered for this cartridge, and to my knowledge no one has had a problem. As for determining what your own barrel will withstand, thus the reason I have not posted my load(s), but rahter just the performance. When searching for the right load I tested 5 other powders and most of them did indeed provide only 100 to 150 FPS advantage over the standard .30-30 Winchester Loads I have tested with those powders.

Yes I do like my .30-30 AI. Just a couple weeks ago I was out shooting it at 100 yards off of a couple different types of rests. I was shooting 3 shot 100 yard groups, and kept changing the rests to see if there was a difference in point of impact. The result was my 100 yard 3 shot groups were averaging between .440" to .775" (center to center) at 100 yards. I hope to someday have a 7-30 Improved for a comparison as I believe it too will be a great cartridge.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the .44 Contender GB. I think things like this are important for others to know about these types of situations so they full well know what can happen. You story only confirms by belief that T/C is a top notch company.

SD Handgunner

[Csbishop]

Thank's for all the info learn something new every day I learned alot just by reading these post's The 30-30 ack imp looks like a pretty good round I was looking for some in a .30 cal that preformed as well as my 7-30 waters looks like I found it.
Thank's Cary

[Graybeard]

You betcha. The .30-30 AI is an excellent companion round to the 7-30. It is a slightly more improved case and performs very similarly but with larger diameter and heavier bullets.

[drdoolittle_1]

Great discussion guys.........it appears that all great minds DO think alike! :wink:   OK, so now I have to dig my 30-30AI 10" Contender out of the safe and let it see some daylight!  Thanks for all of the info gents!
Cheers,
Dave

[Major]

Here we go again… I almost drooled on the keyboard reading all of this.   As KYODE and SD Handgunner will attest I have had my eye on a .30-30AI for a long time now.   Being retired means a fixed income and it takes longer to acquire the funds needed.   I sure do enjoy these forum discussions for adding to my knowledge of the round as I build up my funds.

So let me add my two cents worth here.   I am looking at the .30-30 Ackley Improved not as a whiz bang super cartridge but as a way to add a small bit of performance over an old standard round.   Since I will be shooting this round in a single shot I will be loading my own shells to get away from the flat nose rounds the standard .30-30 needs.   While going to a more effective bullet, why not also go with the Ackley Improved version so my hand loads can’t be accidentally used in a standard .30-30.   At the same time, if I am in a bind and need a quick source of ammo, I can still shoot any factory .30-30 ammo and that factory ammo can be bought for a very low price anywhere that sells ammo.   Have you ever seen a store with ammo that didn’t have a box or two of .30-30?   I also read that there seems to be a very good combination of factors that seem to lead to a round with some inherent accuracy.    

So as I see it, I get a round that is better than the original (but not a barn-burner), will shoot better bullets, is cheap to acquire components for, has some built in accuracy (if I do my part) without being super sensitive and will no longer allow my hand-loads to be fired in an old lever-gun.   Sounds like a winner to me.

[Jim S]

My barrel was done by a friend , gunsmith in New mexico, who is a very informed  fellow about internal as well as external balistics. Charles has tested several 30/30 barrels before and after the conversion from 30/30 to 30/30 AI. He says he has forund a consistent velocity increase of 150FPS +/- 10FPS with the same powder charges loaded in the same box of ammunition. He has loaded 20 rounds of 30.0/4198/130 Hdy SSP and consistently gets 150 FPS more out of the same barrel after the chamber is cut to the improved configuration. Charles believes the better combustion shape of the improved chamber accounts for the difference. All other things being equal i think he is probably correct. Ant way he has proof in chronograph readings he has shown me. I have known this man for several years and he is not shooting the bull just the facts. My $.02

[drdoolittle_1]

Perhaps "fun factor" is part of the allure also.  We all know the little bit extra it adds in shooting a wildcat....something you can't just buy factory ammo off the shelf for like your hunting buddies do.  The AI's are kinda' the best of both worlds.  Perhaps a primer for new reloaders.  The ability to buy ammo off the shelf to begin with and then the being able to get feet wet reloading a "wildcat" without "seemingly difficult" additional fireforming processes.  Then you can have a "kewl round" without much extra effort and then still be able to shoot off the shelf ammo again.  Perhaps gaining only slightly in velocity.......but leaps and bounds in reloading confidence.............and then opening a whole new door into which to toss all further monetary earnings!!!!!!!! Ha, another reloader gets hooked and joins our ranks!!  What more could a guy ask for?  LOL
Cheers,
Dave

[Jim S]

I have heard good things about your shops work. Do you guys reblue ? I have a couple of TC barrels 10"'s both octgon and bull that  have trecked the woods with me for more than a few years and could stand a little TLC in the bluing department .

[drdoolittle_1]

Thanks, Jim.  Bluing and parkerizing tanks are now mounted and should be operational within next couple weeks.  I have several projects prepped for the bluing to get tanks "dialed in".  Shoot me an email for a quote!
Cheers,
Dave