Author Topic: Shooting Boots (Read 1469 times)

genphideaux · « **on:** August 17, 2004, 02:49:17 AM »

Went thru the rule book and could not find if they where legal or not, if not legal than why, If the old artificial support is the answer than everyone who wears lace-up boots is illegal, that dog don't hunt. Have heard from several shooters that if you are winning than the other shooters will call you on it . But in the 1996 nationals in Winnsboro LA. Lones Wigger wore a pair and there was not one complaint, so does this attitude only apply to the less than famous or simple a case of envy. Have several calls into Mr. Conners and will try and get a answer. I would really like to hear your opinions and pro's and con's. If you have wore them then did they help or not.

Dawg

ajj · « **Reply #1 on:** August 17, 2004, 04:10:21 AM »

I bought a pair of shooting boots about four years ago ($99 at that time) just to try some nifty, specialized equipment. I liked the hard, wide, flat sole. The ankle support, which probably isn't much needed, was nice, too and I enjoyed the ribbing I got about "bowling shoes." (They're green and purple.)
I was about to shoot my last string of HP hunter at Raton in '02 when up comes some smug kid (I'm 56): "You know those shoes are illegal." I responded that they were not. "The book doesn't mention shoes." He smiled in the manner of the morally superior having caught a cheater and walked off. Like a fool, I switched to tennies and shot the last string in a rather poor state of mind. (A friend from Ireland had informed me, sadly, that he thought the guy was right.) I racked the rifle and went straight to the merchandise shack for a current rulebook. As I exited I ran into this goober, handed him the book and said "Find it." "Well," says he, "If it's not in there then it falls under the rule that says we should always try to abide by the spirit of the rules." I wondered how he was able to discern the "spirit" of rules that didn't mention shoes. I told him he'd now quoted me two rules that didn't exist but he was unfazed. "You'll notice" (he sneered) "that most people either wear athletic shoes like Cathy or boots like Troy." (This is a guy on first name basis with the greats.) "If they were legal, everybody would wear them."
I was just imagining my fingers tightning around this twerp's throat when Nomad, who was serving as a range officer, happened by. I grabbed him instead of twerp. "Ernie, shooting shoes. Legal or not?" "Illegal in silhouette in Europe, no problem here." I departed before I said something I'd regret, leaving Ernie to wrap it up. Thanks, Ernie.
At the time , I was fresh into AA, not the international star I am today.
I haven't worn the boots since. No use inviting that sort of distraction. (All sports have people like this around.) I found a pair of $35 work boots with flat soles and tight ankles. They're every bit as functional as the shooting boots. Of course, I miss the fun of being able to make people laugh at something besides my shooting.
One last thought: People should be real sure of what they're talking about before they accuse strangers of rule-bending DURING a competition. The spirit of the rules requires that. Sez me.

genphideaux · « **Reply #2 on:** August 17, 2004, 05:02:15 AM »

AJJ,

If the shoe fits you must acquit. Time to put the nay sayers to rest.

Dawg

genphideaux · « **Reply #3 on:** August 17, 2004, 05:05:19 AM »

For got to add, Mr. Connors has advised that this is a non issue and that all protest will be met with same reply.

Dawg

CB · « **Reply #4 on:** August 17, 2004, 05:18:02 AM »

Green and purple SHOOTING SHOES!!! I gotta have em!! name your price. Maybe Zwolle or fall Little Rock match. It occurs to me that's all I've been lacking.
On less serious note, rifle that has driven me mad for couple of years and has come seriously close to being wrapped around a tree more than once is now a fine shooter! scope has something loose inside? make matters worse is it was suspected back in April and returned to the great ones before Raton for repair. I guess that's what separates those who are consistently at the top from rest of us. attention to detail and preparation, half the time I'm unsure of what to detail and what to prepare!!
My regards to the HP shooters down there, maybe we'll get down again before winter, with a GOOD gun, and maybe shootin shoes?
CB

GeoNLR · « **Reply #5 on:** August 17, 2004, 05:22:12 AM »

I for one can't wait to see you in a snazzy pair of shooting boots "Partner"! Just imagine the first off day you have in them... the 1st 23 you fire in standard as a AAA shooter you will hear something like...

"good thing you had the boots on or you would have shot an "A" score for sure James" ...HA-ha

I for one would like to see you walking around in cammo shorts and shirt, head-band and some neon pink aug shooting boots! I just hope I would not have to shoot beside you...LOL

Geo

genphideaux · « **Reply #6 on:** August 17, 2004, 07:11:05 AM »

GeoNLR,

go'in to use camo tape on them to match my hooty hooty shorts, a 23 ain't so bad compared to my 19 in standard begining of the season.

If you can't laugh at yourself just ask George, he will.

Dawg

Hornetx60 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 17, 2004, 12:18:03 PM »

Dawg why don't ya just hook up some big ol gator claw out riggers on them crap kickers ya got. then you can have sum southern shootin boots. 4 claws on each foot that'll make ya stable!!! LOL :wink:

lucho · « **Reply #8 on:** August 17, 2004, 04:37:04 PM »

Just as a discussion point:

Rule 3.12 Clothing - Commercial type trap and skeet vests...... for existing climatic temperatures. Shooting coats, unneccessarily heavy clothing, or anything on the person that would provide artificial support such as clothing having excess padding or stiffening material or which restricts or supports the body in the shooting position may not be worn.

Some shooting shoes I've seen have extended soles in the toe area. I think these might be considered as something on the person and "providing artificial support". Here is an example of what I mean:

http://www.nealjguns.com/ss_store/ShootingBoots.html

Also:

Rule 3.18 Equipment - General - All devices or equipment which may facilitate shooting and which are not mentioned in these Rules, or which are contrary to the spirit of these Rules and Regulations are forbidden. The Match Director or Jury shall have the right to examine a shooter's equipment or apparel. The responsibiity shall be upon the competitor to submit questionable equipment and apparel for official inspection and approval.......

I guess this is the "spirit of the rules" you were refering to.

When I started shooting I was told the spirit of the sport was like hunting. You can't wear anything you wouldn't normally wear hunting or say hiking.

What do you guys the the "spirit" of the sport is?

Lucho

Arizona Jake · « **Reply #9 on:** August 17, 2004, 05:45:00 PM »

Lucho:

I have yet to witness any match where anyone wearing shooting shoes/boots won the match, let alone claim the boots made the shooter perform better.

Artificial elbow or lower back support support do play a significant role, hence its prohibition. The only instances I have witnessed shooters being allowed to use some kind of mechanical support are those where the shooter is unable to stand unsupported or when the shooter has required lumbar suppor to maintain mobility, or when a shooter was nursing a broken limb. Even then, I can guarantee you those shooters will testify no advantage has been gained. I once shot a smallbore match while weaing a cast on one leg, and it was a real inconvenience.

I think, IMHO, that this issue with shooting shoes is splitting lizard hairs. :wink:

shootingpaul · « **Reply #10 on:** August 17, 2004, 05:52:48 PM »

Hello guys,
i agree with all of you,ajj has a good point that the boots rule is a grey area, and luchos help about the rules, my point is that any grey area should be adressed by silhouette commite so we don t have dissagreements at the matches, if you ask me .... well .... shoot your pinky boots and if you will win - I am sure it was not a pinky boot, and there is a lot more to be aware of then a pinky boot, and if I complain about pinky boot then kick my but until it becomes purple.
have a good one ..... and ... were was that site with the boots again?......

AMB · « **Reply #11 on:** August 17, 2004, 06:42:52 PM »

The boots are not going to make any difference, or not enough to worry about, I think we all are pretty much in agreement. But, it's more about the appearance of specialized equipment. Boots here, Shooting jacket a little tighter, Stock Comb a little higher. I've shot steel 19 years, and shooting boots were considered a no, no. I feel as Lucho, basic hunting and hiking gear and there won't be a problem.

I don't blame Ajj, for being irked about the gamesmanship the individual performed, uncalled for. No, sense in trying to distract someone during a match. Unfortuneately, it happens. Some people are just jerks.

cslcAl · « **Reply #12 on:** August 18, 2004, 12:35:16 AM »

We save our "spirits" for after the match. Usually with some tonic water.

Al

genphideaux · « **Reply #13 on:** August 18, 2004, 02:33:31 AM »

lucho,

In your referance to vests you forgot to include the section below it on heavy leather vests and how to determine if they are to tight. Since they are worn by many they are now considered to be acceptiable. Do they help don't know but I sure like mine.

You were told about what to wear and not shown that in a rule book, therefore had they told you wrong it is your responsibility, not their's. As GI Joe say's "Knowing is half the battle"

The spirit to me is to do my best, laugh a little and have fun.

To all,

Come to Benton AR., besure and laugh. I know George, AJJ and I will.

Ian Robertson · « **Reply #14 on:** August 18, 2004, 02:40:33 AM »

You need to remember why shooting boots exist. They are not there to provide more support than a pair of laced up hunting boots and in fact probably give less support. They exist to satisfy the limit of the rule for international shooting (at round targets) - otherwise hunting boots and the like (ski boots) would be used to give unfair support. Have a look at the ISSU rule book to get an idea. Eventually the Sil. rules will have to spell this out as well.

ajj · « **Reply #15 on:** August 18, 2004, 03:18:56 AM »

Coincidently, I was re-reading the rules last night in preparation for "Jury Duty " at our state match and came across the "spirit" reference to which Lucho cites us. Oops! It is in there. The word gives match directors discretion which is a good thing. And I'm again reminded that there is no way to escape "gray area" issues whether we are discussing support provided by the toe of a boot or what the spirit of the game actually is. I bought the boots mainly for fun, had some, and have no regrets, but I don't want to be the cause of any gray area debates at a match. On reflection and with the help of comments here I can see how someone might well be troubled by the appearance of any unusual, highly specialized equipment in silhouette. That was my reaction to thumbhole stocks in hunter, when they were legal, and I'm glad they're gone because they are contrary to my feeling about the spirit of the rules. I hope the committee can avoid writing a rule about shoes and if it comes to that I'll feel bad about having indulged in my little rant. I mainly thought it was an amusing story (now.)
So, I think I'll leave my fancy boots at home, but I won't be offended by anyone else's. As always, I appreciate the patience and thoughtful discussion of this crowd. Kicking around opinions and stories is half the fun and learning something is the other half.

genphideaux · « **Reply #16 on:** August 18, 2004, 03:54:07 AM »

It has been brought to my attention that those heavy leather shooting vests we use have no application in hunting thus are not in the spirit of the game and that hunting boot are specialized equipment for hunting much in the same way as the sling. So we should we not allow the use of a sling.

Dawg

Arizona Jake · « **Reply #17 on:** August 18, 2004, 04:24:40 AM »

Gen:
You really enjoy opening-up worm cans, dontcha? :grin:

genphideaux · « **Reply #18 on:** August 18, 2004, 04:30:11 AM »

Jake,

Need to take some time off and go to the range. Forget about all of this and just shoot. bare footed LOL

Dawg

lucho · « **Reply #19 on:** August 18, 2004, 05:17:08 AM »

I've read a lot of good comments about boots. I think this kind of calm disscussion is what clarifies grey areas. If a new rule on boots is writen I think (hope) it will clarify a grey area and not cause further confusion.

As far as leather vests go, I think the rule says the vest must be loose enough to pass a 4 inch pvc pipe between the shooter and the vest.

This I believe is to insure that the vest is loose and that it does not provide artificial support. I think it is a fair rule. I was looking at some of the Winstead vests and counting my money. I may get one some day. I really like them.

However I think, that at times, the rule is not very well enforced. I have seen shooters who zip a vest up when they shoot and down when they stop shooting. And the vest appears to me that it would not pass the test.

Maybe I should shut up and protest? What do you guys think?

Lucho

chunter · « **Reply #20 on:** August 18, 2004, 06:31:25 AM »

Good point Lucho,

However it seems like the only ones complaining are those of us who haven't been able to afford the Winstead vest yet.

Oh well someday.

Chunter

genphideaux · « **Reply #21 on:** August 18, 2004, 07:07:01 AM »

Chunter,

Thanks for your reply, that is exactly the point I was making about the shooting boots.

Dawg

22Silhouette · « **Reply #22 on:** August 28, 2004, 07:47:08 AM »

Part of this is already said but,

I wear shooting boots almost every time I shoot. I have a weak ankle as a leftover from a motorcycle accident where my leg from the knee down was mangled. I can say they do make a diference, and it is not a great one. It makes more of a diference for me because of my ankle.

I know they are legal from personal conversation with the NRA at the Nationals this year. I was wearing them as I competed in AAA and it was not contested because they are legal. The rules about stiff clothing and artificial support are directly referring to pants, shirts & vests.

In the long run for the normal legged person who has yet to tangle a motorcycle, their leg and a car together at 45 MPH, they will make a slight diference, but not as much of a difference as time put into practicing.

Jerry G · « **Reply #23 on:** August 28, 2004, 02:54:07 PM »

This has been a very interesting discussion. If the boots are worth 5 animals, where do I get some. Pink would be nice.

I think we have far to many rules now. Not just in shooting, but everything. Everyone's answer to things that don't go right is another law (rule). If we are going to make everyone equal, the match should supply the clothes, gun, ammo, and spoting scope. While we are at it, are spotters OK by the rules. It all comes down to the skill of the person jerking the trigger. Jerk it on the right wiggle and you have a hit, or jerk it on the wrong wiggle and guess what, a miss.

Lets shoot good and have fun. All we are shooting for is bragging rights and a small piece of glass that isn't worth anything at the local coffee shop.