Author Topic: FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?  (Read 1291 times)

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Offline Mrserenity

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« on: September 01, 2004, 10:30:34 AM »
Hi, I have been reading that there are two schools of thought concerning mouse guns.  Penetration vs. bullet expansion.  Some individuals believe that due to the lack of power of a .22 that FMJ is the best round to use.  Others think that JHP is better because of expansion.  What do you think?  I'm clearly aware that using a .22 for defense is not recommended, and I do not own one.  However, i'm here seeking knowledge on that subject and would like to know what you experts think!  :grin:   thanks.

Offline Questor

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2004, 11:17:22 AM »
If I had to use a .22 long rifle for defense, I'd choose a hollow point, hoping to get more bleeding. I'd also use a revolver because misfires are too frequent in 22LR. I would also condition myself to fire all available cartridges and then run like heck if I ever had to fire the gun in defense.

But this is all academic. If I really felt I needed a self defense weapon, I'd get something that's made for the purpose.  I'd also start looking for a better place to work or live.

By the way, the 22LR isn't really jacketed, it's just soft lead with coated with a very thin film of copper.
Safety first

Offline Questor

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2004, 11:20:39 AM »
Come to think of it, tracer ammo  might make a good choice for the 22LR because the tracing could scare the bee-jeebers out of the attacker.  Still academic, but just a thought.
Safety first

Offline magooch

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2004, 04:31:32 PM »
What caliber is the M-16?
Swingem

Offline Mikey

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2004, 01:58:44 AM »
magooch:  the M-16 is in .223 or 5.56x45mm caliber - it uses a 22lr sub-caliber device for training - the bore diameters on both rounds is close enough for the sub-caliber devices to work.

Questor - I like that idea, but so would a liberal DA who is looking to fry a gun owner who shot in self defense.  From his/her perspective there is no good reason to create a fatal, non-healing, punishingly painful just before internal combustion round on a poor, economically deprived and driven to crime poorguy.  If all you had was a 22lr, you would be much better off in court if the guy bled to death from multiple gunshot wounds than if he was cooked up fron the inside out by one of those tracer rounds - although I do like that idea............

Basically, if using a 22lr, one should consider penetration over expansion.  With expansion you might not get the penetration you need to make the bad guy either back away or to create a painful and discouraging situation for him.  With expansion, you may be unfortunate enough to have the bullet open up too soon and just create greater animosity.  I have found that the old Remington Golden solids in 22lr work all my pocket pistols very effectively and are powerful enough for headshots on 'car-hit' whitetail or most woods critters who need a good shootin'.  If a 22lr solid can penetrate a whitetail skull it will penetrate into a human torso and cause serious damage.

Now, that's just my two cents worth and even with inflation it's still just two cents worth - lol.  Mikey.

Offline crawfish

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2004, 09:30:46 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but GENERALLY .22 caliber revolvers come in only two flavors .22Lr and .22Mag. Right??? I know you can still find a Fireball or Jet sometimes but GENERALLY only .22 rim fire. That being the case the FMJ option that Mrserenity asks about isn’t an option at all because it doesn’t exist. At least in .22lr. Is there a TRUE FMJ option for .22Mag?
Love those .41s'

Offline cblambert

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2004, 05:06:59 PM »
Quote from: crawfish
Correct me if I'm wrong but GENERALLY .22 caliber revolvers come in only two flavors .22Lr and .22Mag. Right??? I know you can still find a Fireball or Jet sometimes but GENERALLY only .22 rim fire. That being the case the FMJ option that Mrserenity asks about isn’t an option at all because it doesn’t exist. At least in .22lr. Is there a TRUE FMJ option for .22Mag?


Yep, the Magnum rimfires utilize true jacketedd bullet contruction

Offline papajohn428

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2004, 09:52:28 PM »
While the 22 is a poor choice for defense, remember that an awful lot of people have died after being shot with it.......often from periotonitis (sp?) several days after the fact.  Hardly what I'd want to be counting on to stop a bad guy.   :?

A 22 tends to do one of three things upon contacting flesh.  One, it zips on through, leaving little more damage than a 22-caliber ice pick.  Two, it meets enough resistence to stop in the body.  Three, it hits bone and deflects or shatters, sending secondary fragments in several directions.  

As with any caliber, what it hits makes most of the difference.  A 22 in the eye socket is pretty effective.  A 44 in the crotch can break the pelvis and drop your attacker as fast as gravity can pull him down.  Just remember that in a defensive situation, with lots of adrenaline, your shooting skills will be a lot less honed than in your calm practice sessions.  Even cops miss a lot when things go south, something like 70% of the time.   :shock:

If your only option is a 22, keep shooting until it's empty, then get outta Dodge fast.  He may be dead or dying, but he may also be really cranky!

PJ the Petulant Pistolero
If you can shoot home invaders, why can't you shoot Homeland Invaders?

Offline Old Griz

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2004, 12:56:34 PM »
:cb2: Hey Questor, I love that tracer idea. Maybe I could use the defense that because of my old over 50 eyesight was so bad I needed the help to see whether or not I was hitting my intended target?!  :-D
Griz
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Offline Questor

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2004, 10:37:18 AM »
It was just a thought. I think it would be more effective if the "perp" doused himself with gasoline first.  It would give the coroner something to talk about at his annual convention.
Safety first

Offline Old Griz

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2004, 01:04:23 PM »
:cb2: Maybe aim for the nose and ignite the coke residue? :eek:
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Offline Gatofeo

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2004, 10:52:44 AM »
Interestingly, there was once a full metal jacket .22 Long Rifle cartridge.
In the late 1940s or early 1950s, the U.S. Air Force adopted an over/under survival rifle for use by its pilots. Most of these were .22 Hornet and .410 caliber. Some were .22 Long Rifle and .410.
I don't have my references with me now, so I'm vague on model details.
Anyway, the Air Force issued regular, lead bullet .22 Long Rifle ammo at first.
Then military attorneys pointed out that plain lead bullets in military guns were outlawed by the Hague Convention, for reasons of humane warfare.
To solve the problem, the Air Force turned to ammunition companies. I believe Remington got the contract, though it may have been Winchester.
Anyway, they developed a .22 Long Rifle cartridge with a true copper-jacketed (not plated, as seen on W-W rounds) bullet.
I've seen them for sale by cartridge collectors. They are not a common item and usually fetch $20 to $35 per specimen, depending on the extent of shark feeding going on at the gun show.
I know an old USAF survival instructor, who used the ammo in the 1950s. He said it worked fine and didn't appear to wear out bores any faster than lead bullets. However, they didn't shoot a lot of it, he said. They used the lead bullets to show aircrewmen how to use the survival gun. On occasion, they fired a few jacketed rounds.
The shotgun barrel was another matter. Because it fired multiple lead pellets, aircrewmen were warned that it absolutely could not be used against the enemy.
This always brought a chuckle from the aircrewmen, who figured that if it was all they had, they'd fire the .410 and take their chances with the military lawyers later.
Incidentally, the instructor said that the bolt-action .22 Hornet survival rifle was wonderfully accurate. However, he said the break-open .22 Hornet/.410 shotgun was woefully inaccurate. Most aircremen figured to get close and let the rabbit or bird have it at close range with that, rather than risk a shot with the .22 Hornet and miss.
It was that inaccurate, he said.
I don't know if today's civilian version of the same miltiary survival rifle is as inaccurate today. I've never fired one --- and I damn sure never saw an objective report on one in any gun magazine!

But yeah, they actually used to make a .22 Long Rifle cartridge with an honest-to-god copper jacketed bullet.
Seems to me that such a thing would be popular today, if for no reason but its unusual nature. I should think that Aguila or CCI, who seem to make the widest variety of .22 rimfire ammo today, might be interested in such a beast.

As for using the .22 Long Rifle for defense, I'd carry it as a backup weapon to my .45 or Walther PPK in .380 ACP.
I'd carry high-velocity, standard weight bullets of solid-point construction. This, to me, would be the best compromise between penetration and shock effect.
I distrust the light bullet/high velocity concept, as introduced by the CCI Stinger and copied by others since. From what I've seen, they penetrate poorly. Thick clothing or a wallet in the breast pocket would probably stop them, or slow them down to the point of ineffeffectiveness.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline unspellable

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22 CCW load
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2004, 11:35:02 AM »
I'd get a brick of 22's, type doesn't matter, and throw the brick at the troll.

Seriously, if I HAD to use a 22 LR, I'd opt for a high velocity hollow point.  Unlike the center fire mouse calibers, the 22 LR has fairly good penetration and velocity, so you might as well get a little expansion out of it.

I'd avoid the economy line of 22's as I've seen too many misfires due to uneven primer deposition in the rim.  (Remington in particular.)

Offline Bikenut

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2004, 05:31:59 AM »
The following is an opinion.......

If a person can only manage the recoil of a .22 in order to get multiple hits then it becomes a viable self defense weapon since shooting the sky due to inability to control recoil with a larger caliber is pointless. And relying on the first shot, even if accurate, to stop everything is also pointless. However, the .22 simply isn't the best caliber for stopping a bad guy... but is still better than a sharp stick...

Having said that... were I to have to rely on a .22 for self defense I'd load it with alternating bullets.... solid nose, then hollow point, then solid, then hollow, etc., in order to get the best of both worlds. I'd keep shooting until the gun was empty and then club the hell out of the bad guy with the empty gun. Even if all that didn't stop him I'd die knowing I probably took the bad guy with me... even if he dies later on... or gets arrested when he shows up at the hospital for treatment. And I might get lucky and get a good hit... or he will quit and run when shot.

What ever happened the .22 is still better than a sharp stick.
The longer I live, the older I get.
Neither has anything to do with wisdom.

Offline IntrepidWizard

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2004, 05:41:22 AM »
In my experience there has been little to none expansion with Hollow points,but the do shatter on hard objects better.
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a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline unspellable

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Larger caliber vs ability to hit
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2004, 06:05:23 AM »
The argument that a larger caliber is no good if you can't hit with it is not entirely 100% valid.  I used to have a Tokarev rifle, a Soviet self loader of WWII vintage chambered for the 7.62x74R Russian.  It was so ugly that we said even if it was empty you could scare the other guy to death.

Offline Savage

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2004, 07:08:17 AM »
Gatofeo,
Good thing that survival instructor wasn't around when we were slinging all the buckshot and flechettes around the RVN
Savage
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Offline elyod56

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2004, 06:30:48 PM »
the best .22lr  round for a revolver probably would be the winchester 40 gr power point HP. They are noticably more hollowed out than other bullets of that ilk and when using them on small game they will pop when they hit. i have noticed this using handguns that often have problems with bullet expansion at their reduced velocity.

Offline Old Griz

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FMJ or JHP for .22 caliber revolver?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2004, 06:05:23 PM »
:cb2: Savage, I am in awe and wonder. I wonder what planet this survival instructor came from? We've been using shotguns in the military since WWI. (I'm not sure about the Spanish-American War in 1898. Maybe someone wiser and more knowledgeable can fill me in.) The old Winchester pumps were such a fantastic tench weapon that Kaiser Wilhelm tried to get Wilson to pull them. Said they were too inhumane. Imagine that. The guy that gave us poison gas complaining about shotguns being inhumane. Are our boys using them in Iraq?
Griz
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I Cor. 2.2 "For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."