Author Topic: Trigger take up in a 1911, and other trigger questions  (Read 1795 times)

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Offline jeremiahm

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Trigger take up in a 1911, and other trigger questions
« on: September 08, 2004, 07:13:58 AM »
Is there an aftermarket trigger that is adjustable for take up?  

What parts do I need to swap to drop the pull weight in my 1911?  

I have a smith/wesson 1911 and it has a bunch of take up, and I would like to get rid of it.  It looks like the problem could be fixed by a longer bow on the trigger, do they make these?

Offline Questor

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Trigger take up in a 1911, and other trigge
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2004, 08:55:25 AM »
There are a ton of aftermarket parts. Rock River and Wilson make excellent products.  The question is: will they fit in a S&W? The trigger is probably the only thing you need to replace. You may also consider a "long" trigger, which is sized for people with long hands.  If necessary, you can replace the entire trigger/sear/hammer set of components for a reasonable price.

Sone take-up is normal for a 1911, it's when it becomes creepy that we worry most about it. What's the real problem here? Does your trigger have a lot of creep in it?
Safety first

Offline Mikey

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Trigger take up in a 1911, and other trigge
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2004, 10:15:34 AM »
jeremiahm:  Questor is right.  I am also assuming the aftermarket parts for 1911 pistols will fit the S&W production 1911s.  I would recommend Chip McCormick trigger group parts for your problem if you decide to replace those parts.  HTH.  Mikey.

Offline 1895GG

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Trigger take up in a 1911, and other trigge
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2004, 12:33:58 PM »
jeremiahm, hope you don't mind if I jump in here, but I also have 1911 trigger problems.  I have a cheap Norinco that I bought several years ago when I did not have enough money to buy a better one, but I like it as a plain basic military (I won't say "GI" since it is Chinese) M1911 and do not want to sell it, but would like a better trigger--it has lots of creep.  And I also have a Para Ordinance P14-45 with a very heavy trigger.  Can these triggers be improved with after market drop-in triggers or do I need a gunsmith work on/install different triggers?  I have several rifles and revolvers with light smooth triggers and would like to have much lighter, smoother triggers on my two 1911s.
Shoot That ThAng!

Offline Questor

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Trigger take up in a 1911, and other trigge
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2004, 01:02:25 PM »
1895GG:

I'd recommend starting with a disassembly to see if the track that the trigger fits in is smooth and clean. (My gun gets a little creepy if I haven't cleaned the track in a while.) If not, then that could be the cause of the creepiness and you can smooth it with the right tools.  You can also try some good action grease like Brownells Action Lube and see if that smooths the creep. However, it's most likely that the problem is in the sear and hammer assembly. You can replace these parts too.  It seems to me that some common 1911 parts don't fit Norinco, so be sure to look for disclaimers. Wilson makes disclaimers about guns their parts don't fit.  

The next step is modifying the hammer. You can search for articles, but it's basically a job for an arkansas stone to remove some metal from a part of the hammer. I'd rather you had pictures of what to do.  Alternatively, you can replace the hammer with a competition hammer. But if I were doing that, I'd replace trigger hammer and sear. Rock River sells a various kits for this operation.


To lighten the trigger pull, you adjust the three-pronged spring.  I can't remember which leaf you bend. Maybe someone else can help.
Safety first

Offline jeremiahm

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some clarifacation
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2004, 01:53:54 PM »
The trigger doesn't have a incredible amount to "creep" to it, it's just the take up is down right annoying.  These are two very different things in this case.  It's like the gun has a two stage trigger, but the first stage does absolutely nothing, it's just there.  It's probably about 1/8 or maybe even 3/16 of an inch.  I want the trigger pull to start when I put my finger on it, not after I take up all that unnecessary movement to do nothing but waste time.  

I heard that McCormick has a trigger with tabs on it adjust the amount of take up, is this true?  I have also heard of a guy tapping the curved part of the bow to insert a small set screw keep the trigger from coming out of the frame to far, has anyone tried this, on paper, it looks like it would work.  

Like I said before, the creep isn't really the problem.  It's there, but it's not so rough to make the gun unshootable, but the take up just isn't what I want in a single action.  But, who knows, when I get the take up shortened, it may make me more aware of all the time the trigger and the sear are dragging through the trigger cycle.  I know that the overlap of the sear and the trigger is pretty major, but I really don't want to change that relationship in a gun that I may carry.  

Thanks for the info.

Offline Iowegan

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Trigger take up in a 1911, and other trigge
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2004, 04:54:23 PM »
The Chip McCormick trigger you are refereing to does have bendable tabs that push out in the front of the bow. The front groove depth in the frame, just above the mag release, determines how far forward the trigger will move. Bending the tabs forward takes up unwanted slack. See: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5520&title=1911+AUTO+LIGHTWEIGHT+TRIGGER&s=41513#41513

Before you rush out and buy a new trigger, do this simple test: remove the top end, mainspring housing, thumb safety, grip safety and 3-finger spring. Flip the hammer strut up and push the trigger all the way forward. The flat back of the trigger bow should be flush with the frame. If it's deeper than flush, then the CM trigger will help. The back of the trigger bow needs a few thousandths clearance so the grip safety will move freely.

Much of the trigger pull weight is from the 3-finger spring not being formed properly and a hefty mainspring. You can buy a drop-in kit but chances are the 3-finger spring won't be adjusted for your gun. Usually the sear is OK. The hammer sear step might need squaring to reduce creep (don't try this unless you have the proper squaring jig and tools).

Here's what I do: Replace the mainspring with a Wolff 18 lb spring (Brownell's P/N 969-263-180). A 23 lb spring is standard. Replace the factory 3-finger spring with a Clark 4-finger spring (Brnl P/N 181-130-001).

With a 3-finger spring, the right finger is bent back for the grip safety. The center finger tensions the trigger and disconnector, the left finger tensions the sear. With a 4-finger spring, the center spring is divided so you can tension the trigger separate from the disconnector.  If you would like detailed instructions for an action job, send me a PM or email.
GLB

Offline jeremiahm

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Great info
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2004, 01:44:57 AM »
That was a very informative post.  You taught me something.  I have detailed stripped my 1911 a couple of times, but I never knew that there was a spring inside the mainspring housing.  So, you taught me something.  

I noticed that brownells has a 17# spring also, why wouldn't you use that one?  What are the side effects of using a lighter spring than the 18#?  

I know that the trigger won't line up with the back of the frame when it shoved all the way forward, so I may look into getting a mccormick trigger.  

Thanks again for the informative post.  

Jeremiah.

Offline Mikey

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Trigger take up in a 1911, and other trigge
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2004, 01:56:45 AM »
jeremiahm:  the effects of a lighter spring are frame battering and you don't want that.  Go to a heavier recoil spring.  Also, you can re-tension the middle prong of that 3 pronged leaf spring for a lighter trigger pull.  If the back end of your trigger doesn't sit flat with the frame, get another trigger.  I would get the McCormick trigger group - comes with trigger, sear, disconnector and hammer too, I think.  

1895GG - Howdy Buddy - get yourself a McCormick trigger group for that Norinco and she should resolve your problems with trigger creep.  If there is no disclaimer on the Norincos from McCormick, then the parts should swap easily.  If the Norinco has some rough innards you may have to do a bit of stoning in the trigger bar channels to smooth things out for a better fit.  HTH.  Mikey.

ps - on your Para - you may want to check with the McCormick people and see if they have parts for that piece as well.  If not, then someone must have aftermarket parts or a gunsmith may have to work it.

Offline jeremiahm

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mikey...
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2004, 03:58:58 AM »
Are you saying that if I go with the lighter trigger spring, I should also go with a heavier recoil spring?  

What exactly is "frame battering?"  Is that just being rough on the frame, or something more specific?  

I have saw the trigger group kits on line before.  How much help can they be?  How much fitting has to be done in the way of polishing sear/hammer faces?  I don't have a sear jig, so I don't want to attempt this.

Offline Iowegan

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Trigger take up in a 1911, and other trigge
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2004, 08:32:58 AM »
jeremiahm, The mainspring (AKA hammer spring) is located inside the mainspring housing, not to be confused with the recoil spring. The factory mainspring is usually 23 lbs. Replacing it with a 18 lb spring lowers the sear friction, thus trigger pull and still provides plenty of hammer energy for a good primer hit.

Recoil springs are selected based on the power level of your loads. A 16 lb recoil spring is standard factory equipment. If you are shooting full power hard ball, an 18 lb spring is recommended. 22 lb springs are for +P loads. On the lighter side, if you are using 200 gr target loads, a 16 lb spring works well.  Recoil springs are available in tensions from 10 to 28 lbs. The key for a proper recoil spring is function. If the spring is too heavy, the cases won't extract. If it's too light, you'll batter the gun. Also, lighter springs may not allow the gun to feed properly.  Generally, you should use the heaviest spring possible that allows flawless extraction. Recoil springs compress with use and should be replaced every 500~1000 rounds.

Frame battering comes from not having enough spring tension in the recoil spring. As the slide bottoms out on the frame during recoil, it will beat the poor thing to death. Cracked slides and compressed springs may also result.

Trigger springs (AKA 3-finger springs) don't really come in lighter tensions. They must be shaped (bent) to conform to the specific gun. Seldom do "drop-in" springs actually drop in and work properly. Most factory guns come with the tension set way too tight.

To "adjust" the 3-finger spring: first, remove the slide assembly, thumb safety, mainspring housing, and grip safety, then flip the hammer strut up. Make sure there is no oil on the parts when making adjustments.

Center finger: with the 3-finger spring in place, slide the mainspring housing up until the pin hole at the bottom of the grip frame line up with the hole in the MS housing. Note how the center finger pushes forward against the ramp of the disconnector. Locate the disconnector on top of the frame. The proper tensioned center finger must provide enough pressure so the disconnector pops up after pushing it down. If this isn't set right, the gun won't shoot. You can take the spring out, bend the center finger and keep trying until proper tension is set. The optimum condition is when the disconnector pops up reliably with minimum tension.
 
Left finger: The left finger of the 3-finger flat spring controls the tension for the sear to latch the hammer when the hammer is cocked. If it is set too light, the hammer will fall when the slide slams forward. Full auto may result. Of course too much tension will make the trigger pull to harsh. A good starting point is to bend the left finger until it follows the same parallel as the center finger.  Completely reassemble the gun and release the slide by pressing down on the slide release. The hammer must stay cocked when the slide slams shut. You can disassemble, bend the left finger back a little, reassemble and try again. The optimum is when the left finger has the minimum tension required to hold the hammer cocked when the slide slams shut (no ammo).

Right finger: The right finger controls the tension on the grip safety. Too much tension will make the grip safety bind on the trigger bow. Too little tension disables the grip safety. Bend the right finger until the bottom lip of the grip safety rests firmly on the lip of the mainspring housing. With the hammer cocked, the grip safety should move freely and spring back fully after being pressed.

The gun should now have a 3~4lb trigger pull. Removing "creep" requires buffing friction points and mating surfaces. This is a good way to get in trouble and ruin parts, not to mention possible full auto conditions.

Replacing the sear, disconnector, 3-finger spring, mainspring, and hammer are a good solution for Norincos and Chas Daly's. In higher quality guns, the parts are usually OK and seldom require replacement. The biggest culprit for creep is the sear notch in the hammer. If you decide to replace your hammer, make sure the replacement part is compatible with your grip safety, else it will not work. I like the McCormick kits because the sear and disconnector come pre-smoothed.
GLB

Offline IntrepidWizard

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Trigger take up in a 1911, and other trigge
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2004, 08:56:10 AM »
Excellent explanation,clean the trigger grooves and you have got it.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline jeremiahm

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Excellent Post!
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2004, 10:33:52 AM »
Keep them coming guys, I'm learning a bunch!!

This forum has been very helpful in my endeavors, to say the least.  

I can't wait to tear the old smith apart again!  

Can someone recommend a good trigger pull gauge?

Offline Iowegan

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Trigger take up in a 1911, and other trigge
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2004, 11:56:19 AM »
Lyman makes a real nice digital gauge, $47.95 in the Midway catalog.  0 to 12 lbs, .1 oz accuracy. RCBS sells  two spring gauges, Standard 0-4.5 lbs and Premium 8 oz to 8 lbs. If you get the RCBS, go for the Premium. It costs $27.87.

Then there's the Wally World option. Go to the fishing dept and buy a hand held Zebco fish scale. They come in 0-8 lbs and 0-12 lbs. Under 5 bucks and they work good enough, even have a tape measure included. I've had mine for many years. I use a fishing leader to couple the trigger to the scale.
GLB

Offline jeremiahm

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Ok....
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2004, 06:25:37 PM »
I have made some adjustments and I'm starting to see some potential.  I have got the trigger somewhat lighter, but of course, the take it still there.  I can see a McCormick trigger on the horizon.  

I have made another problem though.  Now, every once in a while I get a trigger pull that is a little harder than it should be.  The trigger pull isn't being consistent.  I think I can link it to the grip safety.  It feels like it is binding every once in a while.  It seems like I can make the trigger bind when I go to a high thumb, thumb on the safety grip.  How do I fix this problem?

Offline Iowegan

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Trigger take up in a 1911, and other trigge
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2004, 07:37:17 PM »
Thumb on grip safety??? I'm confused.  If it's a mechanical problem, remove the grip safety and dry fire to confirm the inconsistent trigger pull. If it still does it with the GS removed you have a different issue. With the forward trigger travel you mentioned, it's hard to believe the grip safety is causing the problem.

The grip safety has a tab on the inside right side. There is a little step in the tab. When the grip safety is at rest, the horizontal surface (midway between the top and bottom) of the step rests on the top of the trigger bow while the slightly angled vertical surface stops the trigger from moving to the rear.  As you move the grip safety forward, the step lifts above the trigger bow and allows the trigger to be pulled. If the grip safety isn't being held forward enough, the trigger will bind on the GS.

More info is needed before you start filing on things.
GLB

Offline jeremiahm

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clarifaction
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2004, 05:49:06 AM »
Thumb on thumb safety, not grip safety.  I think I'll take the grip safety out of the frame and see if the trigger stills hangs up every once in a while.  Then, I'll get back to you.

Offline jeremiahm

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fixed
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2004, 04:15:21 PM »
I put a little extra tension on the grip safety, and if fixed my problem of binding.  

I also measured my trigger pull tonight.  After all my tinkering, I have ended up with a very shootable 3.5 pound trigger pull!  I saved a hundred bucks by doing it myself, and it was very easy!

I'm still going to go with a Chip McCormick trigger in the near future.  If noting else, it's going to look a lot better than the one that is in it, plus it should take the take up out of it.  

Thanks everyone for all the help.  I couldn't of done it without this board!

PS, I wish I would of got this kind of help on selecting a good holster in a older thread.  I think I got one response, maybe two.  

Jeremiah.