Author Topic: President Bush signed the police nationwide CCW bill!!! (Read 4450 times)

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #90 on:** October 02, 2004, 12:57:34 AM »

I think Nicki says it best:
http://www.armedfemalesofamerica.com/takingaim/above.htm

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #91 on:** October 02, 2004, 05:14:43 AM »

"John Kerry was 'stupid' to inject his Vietnam service into the presidential campaign in the first place. You can't play 'war hero' if it's about a war where you came home and threw your medals away."

60 Minutes creator and producer for 36 years,
recently retired, Don Hewitt ...regarding the
Dan Rather, CBS, 60 Minutes debacle

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #92 on:** October 02, 2004, 05:45:42 AM »

Quote from: IntrepidWizard

"You can't play 'war hero' if it's about a war where you came home and threw your medals away."

Right on, Wizard.
You also can't be a shootin, huntin, 2nd Amendment hero after voting against gun rights for 30 years in the Senate. I think we're on the wrong thread though. :wink:

jhm · « **Reply #93 on:** October 04, 2004, 02:00:30 PM »

Well I have read all the posts about this law, and let me state that for over 40 years I have always been around leo, delt with them in business, trained the CHP in closed classes, and even have a son-in-law who is a officer, and if you dont think that there is a us and them attitude between the police and the regular citizen you are mistaken, now before you leo get your shorts in a wad think back to when you wernt a cop and then think how you changed when you became a cop it is real and saying so wont make it go away, for the most part I really like the police but with that I have to admit to finding some of their remarks funny at the time, and even repeated the stories told by many of them, yes people for the most part only want a cop around when they need one, or vary quickly after they have taken care of the problem themselves, I grew up in Detroit Mi. around the 4th precint and back then you didnt dare get caught by what was called the big 4 on fort st. they made life misserable for you because they could, and I managed to come out of it in pretty good shape, moved to the subburbs, guess what the same attitude from the ones that always came by the gun-shop hopping to find a give-away deal on anything they could, no problem we all want that but their were a few that felt they were suppose to recieve a special deal, was able to retire at the age of 34 when I bought a cattle ranch in Ar. opened a gun-shop and here they come, it goes with the type of business I guess, the ones looking for the special deals, and that really wasnt a problem it would have been done any how it was the I am a cop what can you do for me attitude that always came out even if they wernt known to be a cop it was always known b-4 a deal was ever finished ( I cant remember a plumber, electrition, carpender, Dr, etc, etc, tell you his profession just to get a special deal ) Now this isnt to refere that all have tried it but top those that havent keep hanging around some of the old timers a while and you will hear about the great deal so and so got on something because he was a cop, their is a them and us attitude between the leo and the regular citizen dont ever think that it doesnt exist, and I am as guilty of it as they were I knew some of the stories being told were wrong and I am sure alot of it was BS, but guess what it was there and it still is there, with that said I dont know how I feel about the law, if I had to put it on a scale I think I would be against as those of us who take our ccw serious and went thru the training required with dollars out of our pockets instead of being paid to take it. I feel a CCW for any state shopuld alow you to carry in all states, retired truck drivers, cooks, carpet installers, and yes even leo.

JIM

Rummer · « **Reply #94 on:** October 05, 2004, 02:11:18 PM »

OK guys I am going to put my 2 cents in here

I am not i favor of granting this privilege to current/former LEO's.

Firstly, I don't buy the argument that this can be viewed as a stepping stone towards all qualified citizens being able to carry. There is NO way our gov't would ever allow that to happen. We have two parties that are all about big govt. One is vocally antigun, the other claims not to be, but will cave on this isuue in a heartbeat if it will get them votes.

I really fear that this law is one more step in creating a police class. It is my belief that LEO's are not held to the same standards of accountability if they employ a weapon as a citizen would be if he employed his. I don't believe for a minute that the if Amidou Diallo (sp?) had been shot by a citizen of NY that the citizen wouldn't have been in big trouble. As it was 4 cops shot him, they obviously made a mistake, and nothing happened to them.

Guys we are progressing towards a police state in this country. This is simply one more step down the road. It gives a particular class of gov't employees one more privilege that the rest of us don't have.

lostone1413 · « **Reply #95 on:** October 06, 2004, 05:25:49 AM »

Rummer I agree with you a 100%. Their had to be a deal cut in the Senate to get a 100% vote but you won't know it until after the election. Bet it doesn't favor us other gun owners. Now with the goverment working for a national ID that is another move to a police state. I'll vote for GWB but it is allot more a vote against Kerry then a vote for GWB

jhm · « **Reply #96 on:** October 06, 2004, 06:37:48 AM »

There is another side of the coin to look at and is goes something like this ( now that we the ( GOV.) has granted the police to carry everywhere its like having extra law enforcement around so YOU dont need a CCW.) I donty think any of us like the sound of that.)

JIM

lostone1413 · « **Reply #97 on:** October 06, 2004, 08:17:00 AM »

Have to go along with that to JHM. On the 2nd I went to the 10year CCW Banquet in Phoenix. I talked to allot of people in the gun business and allot of shooters. Everyone that I talked to about bill 218 felt the same as you and I do about the bill. Everyone that I talked to was going to vote for GWB but it was more a vote against Kerry then a vote for GWB.Just like me here. Not one person I talked to really looked at GWB as a strong backer of the 2nd amendment.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #98 on:** October 08, 2004, 03:34:16 PM »

I cannot believe when I innocently started this post that it would have run amok like this, 100 posts and many filled with venom. I said I was done with this thread when you guys started your hate the cops campaign shortly after I posted the information of the Nationwide Police CCW bill signing but I feel I wish to personally respond with my feelings.
For all you detractors of the police out there (read that secret cop haters or wanna-be's who couldn't make the grade) who all have your best stories of "I knew this cop and he was an ***hole so all cops are" or "my wife was sleeping with all the deputy sheriffs and cops for miles around so all COPS are bad" (what is the reasoning here?) think about this,what would this world be if there were no police? And let me tell you this, a gun does not make the cop, the CPR training, first responder and first aid training, accident and criminal investigation training, holding and comforting someone you don't know in your arms as they die at an accident scene, all those selfless long night shifts and going to Ma & Pa's house at 0630 to tell them their little johnny or mary was killed on a car crash last night, thats what makes a cop. When I think that my children did not have "Daddy" home on Christmas eve for the first 6 & 7 years of thier lives because "Daddy" had to pull an outlying night shift patrol, when I think of all their ball games and plays I had to miss and thier broken hearts because "Daddy" (remember I'm Daddy to them, not some scum cop as some of you people liken to all police) had to work, all to protect the rights of bums to trash the police, I get sick. I may have had to be polite while I was on the job but I'm retired now and some of you people really are clueless and uninformed. (Attention Moderator, I cleaned that last staement WAY up!!!...)
Like us or not, you would be a lot worse off without us and our training. And yes, complain about an "us and them" mentality, you bet it's out there, walk a mile in my shoes buddy, if you can, and you will soon see whats its like. Or as some of you believe just arm every yahoo out there and it will work out. And I'm a bit sick of trying to be polite to you cop bashers out there, do I think that cops are better trained, better selected and more capable of handling a situation out there than the average citizen, YOU BET I DO, If I need help I want a trained cop coming to help me not some wanna-be yahoo with a gun who thinks he is trained. You may all have your horror stories of cops you either hate, fear or envy but the average cop is MUCH better prepared and trained to help than you and the average civilian are.
Myself and every cop I know are for private ownership of firearms, it's the politcians in the Chief of Police groups who talk about restricting gun ownership, not the street cops. but from experience we also know many out there should not only be restricted from owning a gun but should be in jail but the liberal judges and attorneys keep them on the street.
You think there is a conspiracy between the president and the gun lobby?
You think President Bush is against you (us)?
You think if John Kerry gets elected you will still have all your guns in 4 years?
You can have these screwed up ideas but put John Kerry into office and you will soon see who the defender of gun rights is.
John Kerry is the most Liberal senator in this country, more liberal than Hillary Clinton and hates all of us "poor people" and only hates guns and gun ownership more. I just hope for all our good, you are able to put your spite and hatred behind you and vote for a good american in November and hopefully get to see a bit beyond your self centered and spite filled ideas in the future....<><....GO George W.!!! :cb2:

myronman3 · « **Reply #99 on:** October 08, 2004, 05:59:14 PM »

just because some of us disagree doesnt mean we hate cops.

you need to get off your high horse. you think cops are the only ones who spend time away from their families? we all do. you think cops are the only ones who sacrifice of themselves for the better good? get real. you think that being a cop is the measure of a real man? earn your tabs and then come talk to me about who can do what. the fact is that a whole lot of the population has experience and makes contributions that make us great as a country. EVERY person that works hard for a better life helps america to be great; whether they are a cop, a truck driver, nurse, teacher, factory worker, carpenter, preacher, migrant worker, and on and on. if you think the world spins because of cops alone, you need a vacation.

this whole issue we are concerned about is highlighted in your responses. many of you clearly think your a step above the rest of folks. some of you even put yourselves on pedestals. you think you have really seen some heavy stuff. get over yourselves. there is alot of ugly out there, cops see some, but for sure there are those that tow a heavier line day in and day out and never sink to putting themselves before others. in fact, they do just the opposite. they defend everyone and ask nothing. so many have died and are long forgotten. when was the last time you thought about folks who did that for us? i am haunted by it because i dont think most americans deserve what we have. instead we get folks who pail in comparison who think they are so much better than everyone else that they get rights the rest of us dont. when you think like that you spit on their graves, and dishonor yourselves.

our constitution says all men are created equal. there is a bill of rights for all of us. not several ones for several classes of people. look at the big picture guys. you are better than this.

myronman3 · « **Reply #100 on:** October 09, 2004, 04:43:27 AM »

i would say that is a dead on accessment.

Rummer · « **Reply #101 on:** October 09, 2004, 09:55:01 PM »

MSP Retired,

Sir, nobody is claiming that you don't have a very demanding and important job. I don't believe anybody here is claiming that police are uncecessary. Nobody is questioning your training or disputing the fact than an armed presence is a great deterrent against crime/terrorism.

The major bone of contention is that this law creates multiple classes of people before the law (this is the major problem with hate crimes/speech laws as well). Whether or not a police class would make us "safer" is irrelevant.

What makes this bill even more scary is that the favored class of people described in this law work for the government, leaving us with the potential for one law for the ruled and one law for the rulers.

Multiple classes of people before the law is a bad idea.
A government, or agents thereof, that is above the law is a bad idea.
This law contains elements of both, making it a bad law. Please note that I am criticizing a law, not you personally or police in general.

The examples of negative encounters with the police a related as evidence that not all folks who wear the badge have the ability to handle their responsibility over others; and probably shouldn't have this carry privilege extended to them.

I have in front of me a 1989 printing of Bill Jordan's "No second place winner". Near the end of Chapter one Jordan writes about alibi guns and "hypothetically" planting them on persons accidentally shot to save one's own a$$. He also writes about a shooting on a bridge during which the shootee loses his fired weapon over the bridge. Other LEO's throw weapons matching the suspect's over the bridge. These guys planted evidence just to save one of their own, the truth be damned. As a law-abiding citizen I find this kind of conduct to be deplorable.

Because of examples like this many of us in the general public worry about how effectively police organizations police their own ranks.

Nobody is questioning your integrity, sir, we just recognize that nor everyone who is an lEO is ethical. We worry that otherwise ethical LEO's will look the other way. I believe that the police are the good guys. They are only the good guys as long as they obey the law. We are a nation of laws. The first duty of our governments (and all its agents) is to obey the law. Surely you would agree that the people who enforce the law should be able to obey it? (I am quite sure that the vast majority of LEO's do obey the law.)

Another reason I don't like the "The police are trained argument' is because that argument has been repeatedly used to limit firearms ownership to the police. Once again, this is not and indictment of police, it is a problem with the argument. The reason I don't like the argument is that Policemen are armed to deal with what is ostensibly a threat to citizens and themselves. If police need weapons to deal with this threat than so do citizens.

Quote

Myself and every cop I know are for private ownership of firearms, it's the politcians in the Chief of Police groups who talk about restricting gun ownership, not the street cops.

Good, I am a little surprised, but unbelieveably glad to hear it.

Rummer

mjbgalt · « **Reply #102 on:** October 10, 2004, 03:22:15 AM »

rummer, good points.

i think some of us need to take things into perspective. since when has ANY of us EVER known MSPRET to be pretentious, rude, or stuck on himself? anyone ever known him to think he is better than anyone else or that he deserves something we dont?

then why in the heck are you ASSUMING those things based on a post he made? i would say we OWE him the benefit of the doubt and if you disagree than fine but do so on the premise that he is misled or simply hasnt heard the evidence you have, not the assumption that he is any of those things i mentioned earlier. this man is a retired officer, a fellow Christian, a Republican, and a friend. i think there is more reason to give him the benefit of the doubt than there is to crucify him on the forums.

i dont know yet if i agree or disagree but i think we need to keep this discussion in the realm of discussing a theory and talking about our beliefs about this law, not bashing beloved members of the site when they disagree.

thanks,
-Matt

myronman3 · « **Reply #103 on:** October 10, 2004, 03:42:53 PM »

"since when has ANY of us EVER known MSPRET to be pretentious, rude, or stuck on himself? anyone ever known him to think he is better than anyone else or that he deserves something we dont?"

read some of his previous posts on the subject.

"then why in the heck are you ASSUMING those things based on a post he made?"

his words. man enough to speak them should be man enough to own up to it.

"i would say we OWE him the benefit of the doubt"

i owe him nothing more than common courtesy; as he does me.

"this man is a retired officer, a fellow Christian, a Republican, and a friend. i think there is more reason to give him the benefit of the doubt than there is to crucify him on the forums. "

i didnt hear the call to nail him to the cross; just folks disagreeing and speaking their piece. all, i might add, while not getting personal. what we have here is a difference of opinion. some have spoken more eloquently than others. maybe i fall into that catagory as well; but im not walking on eggshells wasting time worrying about hurting feelings. besides, if anyone got out of line with anyone, check how he attempted to talk down to others. most posts were thought out and respectful. whats the problem?