Not quite sure...but got to ask.....

[Mac11700]

Hello guys:
 
 
I don't have a muzzle loader yet...but have been reading and listening about them for awhile...my problem is I don't get enough time to do all the shooting I want with my centerfires...rifles/shotguns...and if for some strange reason if  I truly like shooting them...then I'll really be in trouble.....but I'll show my ignorance here with all of you Guru's and blaze down my trail of ignorance and ask a few questions....don't laugh to hard...
 
1) Is a spit patch...one that you have held in your mouth for a period of time to soak up ...well spit??
 
2) Do you have to have a different starter rod? for loading these new sabot's...??
 
3) Of loading all of the different alternatives of powder...why isn't much said about these pellets that you can slide on I believe it's Hornady's red sabot ?? It seems it would be soooo much faster and easier to use this over loose powder??
 
4)Can you get a regular ram rod to fit in the hoops instead of a collapsible one that they come with...or does that collapsible one work good enough for everything if your careful...
 
5) Why is there a "crud" ring inside the breech area?
 
6) Would I need to get a different forearm for my RMEF Whelen if I got a Huntsman barrel fitted?
 
Well that's about it for now....thanks for your advise.....
 
 
Mac

[lik2hunt]

Hey  Mac    - I'll give it a shot here, OK?

1) Is a spit patch...one that you have held in your mouth for a period of time to soak up ...well spit??....beats the heck outa me  :?


2) Do you have to have a different starter rod? for loading these new sabot's...??.....I don't think so, but you would have to take special care with the Huntsman rod over one of the non-telescoping types. Sabots leave a lot of plastic residue in the barrel and require very frequent cleanings, hence the clean it after every shot rule that's recommended by CVA and other manufacturers. I use the Powerbelts and lube my barrel with OxYoke WonderLube 1000 Plus and can fire 5-7 shots before the bullets even start to become difficult to ram down the pipe. There is a thread here about how the Powerbelts don't expand on impact consistently and I have never put one in a deer yet so I can't confirm or dispute that for now, but they are certainly accurate to shoot at the range.

3) Of loading all of the different alternatives of powder...why isn't much said about these pellets that you can slide on I believe it's Hornady's red sabot ?? It seems it would be soooo much faster and easier to use this over loose powder??......I think that's because the "Speed Sabot" is designed for the 150 grain MZ's to shoot. (Three pellets) The Huntsman is a 100 grain load gun (2 pellets) as determined by H&R. The 26" barreled Sidekick, however, is rated for the 150 grain "max" loads so it would probably work in it.......uh-oh that one is on my list of "next" somewhere down about 3rd or 4th  ....after the.....well you know.  :wink:

   
4)Can you get a regular ram rod to fit in the hoops instead of a collapsible one that they come with...or does that collapsible one work good enough for everything if your careful.........Nope the non-collapsibles are too long to fit in the hoops on the Huntsman. Some guys are carrying a seperate non-telescoping rod to the range and then just making do with telescoping one in the field. There was one trick offered that I liked where someone carried a 7" piece of wood dowel with him in the field and used it in the first push and then finished with the Huntsman rod in un-telescoped position. Just have to be careful to remember to remove the wood piece before firing  :eek: The collapsible one will work for everything but you would have to be REAL careful, especially if you use the sabots.

5) Why is there a "crud" ring inside the breech area?.....I don't know if I can answer this one thouroughly but I do know it has to do with the different powders and that some burn dirtier than others just like with smokeless, except when the BP substitutes burn dirty they burn really dirty. Triple7 is supposed to be the cleanest burning. The amount of your load has some bearing on it too, say if you are loading too much and have a lot of blowback of unburned or partially burned powder in firing. Since the Huntsmans and Sidekicks don't use nipples in the breech then you do get some blowout at the breech face when you fire.

6) Would I need to get a different forearm for my RMEF Whelen if I got a Huntsman barrel fitted?......I think so. The Huntsman and Sidekick forearms employ a small cut-away in the front of the forearm and there is a small piece of metal inserted inside similar to the holding pin on a crossbow and the ramrod fits about 3" down into the forearm and is held securely by the pressure put against it by the curved metal insert.


Hope I helped ya out some and cleared up the muddy water a little, I certainly owe ya some good advice.  :roll:    

[Mac11700]

Like2Hunt:

Thanks....still would like to know what the heck a spit patch is...  and I have another one...

If the Huntsman is strickly a 100 grain proposition...I take it the Sidekick  barrel won't work on the SB-2 Handi frame correct?  If I can only shoot 100 grains or it's eqivalant...why can't I just  use 2 of those pellets and trim off some of that plastic rod that comes on the Hornady...or does it work that way...I don't know if you can or not...but if 3 pellets = 150 grains...it seems to me that 2 pellets = 100 grains correct...or does it not work that way with black powder substitutes? Do you know of anyone using these things?Do these pellets give as good of accuracy as say...regular BP or pyrodex...I know the varinces you can get with our regular rifles and different powders...but I figured that a-lot of guys would go for it for ease of use...as to which bullet I would be using...I might try the Partition in it...seems to work ok for the 45-70...but it would be pretty pricey...which brings up another dumb question.....can a person use a .458 jacketed bullet in a 50 cal sabot?


Mac

[bubba]

Mac

a spit patch is exactly what it says. You put a dry patch in your mouth and lube it with spit to wipe out the barrel. You are correct about the pellets. the ones on the hornady all in one are 5o grain. You simply could trim them to 2 pellets and have 100 grains.

The sidekick barrel will not fit any other frame. It has a shorter receiver and is done that way so it is considered a muzzleloader and cant be fit with centerfire barrels.

If you send in a receiver to be fit with a huntsman barrel, the price includes a forearm in the deal.

As far as the crud ring. This happens with the ignition of the powder. The one that actually has the crud ring the worst is triple 7. I think it has to do with it burning hotter. Some things have been done to cut it down. For instance, most breech plugs are hollowed out now which allows ignition ti take place inside the breech plug and eliminate some of the crud ring. Anothe ris to use a less hot primer. I was told to get 410 primers, but I got away from 777 because of the crud ring.

Most people who have muzzleloaded for a long time seem to shy away from the pellets because of the limited charges you can use. They now have 30 and 50 grain pellets so you can dabble a bit like 80, 90 grains 130 etc. With loose powder you can change your load by 5 grain increments and really fine tune a load. See muzzleloaders like modern firearms can be finicky about what they shoot.  Sometimes just changing a load by 5 grains can make a big difference in accuracy. You arent allowed the ability with pellets. The load that works well in my sidekick is 100 grains of pyrodex rs and a 295 powerbelt. However when I shot 2 50 grain pellets it was not as accurate as 100 grains of loose powder. Also I can load it more often with loose before having to clean it.  

I hope this helps

[lik2hunt]

Hmmmm......I'm not sure if the sidekick could be fitted as an accessory barrel or not, I know they're not offered as one, but we both know how that doesn't always mean that H&R won't fit and sell you a barrel you may want. I have looked at several Sidekicks and the whole body of the frame of the receiver is smaller and shorter than the Huntsmans and probably the barrels are either cut differently to fit them or for any number of other reasons would not be adaptable to a standard SB-1 or SB-2 receiver. I also know that the whole concept behind the production of the Sidekicks was to get the H&R MZ's into the states, and take advantage of the markets, where the Huntsmans were not allowed because of them being considered a BATF regulated firearm because of the extra barels being able to be added to them. So to get an accessory Sidekick barrel....I don't know, but I do know that no other barrels can be added to the Sidekick itself.
I suppose that the 2 pellet equation would work on the Speed Sabot and yes the pellets are 50 garins each and both pyrodex and 777 are offered in pellet form now, but as far as the advertised accuracy I doubt it would be the way they say.......4" group w/ 20" penetration at 200 yds, again that is for the MZ's like the Encores, CVA Optima Pros, the TC Omegas, etc., etc. Long barreled, strong actioned Muzzies built to withstand those kind of loads. But I bet that we haven't heard much about them here yet because they are still fairly new and like both of us are doing, probably the rest of the guys are just waiting for someone to spend the bucks to try 'em out and then post. Plus being as close as it is to season, I'm not wanting to hone in another load right now and am just going to stay with what I know will work, well accuracy wise anyway, still have to wait and see how the Powerbelts perform in a kill situation. I'm trusting that they will do well.
As far as bullet choices for the Huntsmans, well here's a post that I found interesting and have since PM'ed TCallBuilder about and he swares by his load and I plan to give it a try for next seson and maybe even before that on a BIG ole hog. :wink: I'll PM ya with the whole scoop but here's the original post....

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=40400&highlight=4550+sabot

As far as the .458 in a 50 cal sabot I've wondered the same thing myself......hah wonder why.......here's a post about that subject.

[/url]http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=41026

[bubba]

Not only the speed sabots seem to be more convenient, they are expensive. You will not be able to get the sidekick in an accessory barrel because it will not fit any frame due to the shortened receiver and lug. The idea of ae huntsman being 100 grains only is somewhata precaution on their part. Since thehuntsman i sbuilt on a shotgun receiver, it will theoretically withstand less pressure. I had my 243 sent in for a huntsman barrel, and shot 150 grains in it with no problems. I did it twice, but it is again on a stronger theoretically frame. I have muzzleloaded for 27 years and never saw the need to load any firearm that heavy.  The advertising hype of 200 yard groups and deadly is just that hype. It sells guns.

[Longcruise]

1) Is a spit patch...one that you have held in your mouth for a period of time to soak up ...well spit??

You can use a spit patch to wipe the bore after the shot or to patch a round ball.  Most don't patch their roundballs with a spit patch for hunting since it will dry out in the bore and could cause a rust ring in the bore to boot.

It seems it would be soooo much faster and easier to use this over loose powder??

It is, but using one or two pellets gives you a choice of two loads.  If you reload for modern guns what would you think of being limited to only two powder charges for your load?  It lacks the versatility that you have with loose powder.

Can you get a regular ram rod to fit in the hoops instead of a collapsible one that they come with..

Yeah, but it's going to stick out kinda far

5) Why is there a "crud" ring inside the breech area?

Here is a link to a super source of info on this and a lot more.  It's titled as a history of bp but in fact if you read it through you will learn more than you ever need to know about this.

http://thunder-ridge-muzzleloading.com/Bill%20Knight.htm

[Primer]

Mac11700:

If I may add a few other remarks:

1: As Bubba said, a "spit patch" is just that. You take a clean :wink: patch and lick both sides (doesn't have to be real wet...only moist ).

My thinking on "why use a spit patch",is as follows:

The spit obviously does not clean the bore like a commercial B.P.solvent, alcohol, or chemical concoction...but does pretty well. My purpose therefore...is to even out the variables. :shock:
It's like any shooting, custom reloading or shooting a bow. The more consistant the variables are, the more true/consistant your accuracy and dependably....shot for shot.
As said,my purpose is to condition the fowled bore so that each load and shot are the same ( as close as is possible, anyway) for tight groups/consistant impact point. This thought process  :roll: can even go as far as how you move the down stroke and up stroke of the ram rod while cleaning (ie: pumping motion vs straight motion).

 2: For your added info, Pyrodex pellets have a black powder coating on one end to offer faster (lower temp) ignition. These pellets seem to work fine in the Huntsman. I assume they are working fine in the new Sidekicks,but cannot attest to this as I don't own a Sidekick.
The Tripple 7 pellets do not contain a black powder cap and therefore a hotter ignition spark is needed to get them on their way. My Huntsman breech plug design does not seem to allow enough primer fire reaching the pellet to guarantee consistant ignition of these 777 pellets.

Pellets do offer great accuracy and many shooters prefer their simplicity and ease for loading.
The pellets,however, as mentioned....are not as cost effective as the loose powder. ( lb of loose is 7,000grs,or 70 (100 gr) shots vs. the 50 shots offered in a full box of pellets). Both around $20+ dollars.

Personally, I also prefer loose powder for the infinite load size possibilities which,for me anyway, allows for much better "fine tuning" of my load = better accuracy with a variety of projectiles and bullet weights. I carry my pre-measured loads in 35mm film cannisters when hunting and can load gun as fast as dropping the pellets into the bore. :wink:

3: You should be able to use a .458" jacketed bullet in a .50 cal, PROVIDED you can locate a .50 cal sabot to accept that bullet dia. Seems to me that MMP brand sabots made one for that dia or a .457"dia...can't remember the details, but you could check with MMP.  www.mmpsabots.com
or 1-870-741-5019 in Harrison, Arkansas. :grin:

[lik2hunt]

Hey guys I just finished talking to Mac who's at work right now and he wants to know if you chew, how does that affect your spit patch and if so which is the best brand to use?  

[Primer]

Ahhh, GRIZZLY Long Cut Wintergreen. :roll: It goes with (smells same as ) BoreButter and hear that it helps "season" the barrel. :grin:  :-D

[Sourdough]

A spit patch is a left over from the old days.  In the frontier days the person carring a muzzleloader would place a patch in his mouth and saturate it with spit.  Then when he shot he had a lubed patch ready to reload with.  back then they shot round balls with patches.  The spit acted as a lubracant to help slide the patch and ball down the barrel.  

As for getting accessory barrels for the Sidekick?  Forget it.  The Sidekick was developed as a muzzleloader only so it would not be subject to restrictions from BATF.  Since the Huntsman can be fitted with a barrel for centerfire and shotgun shells it is classified as a modern gun, and falls with in BATFs restrictions.  Same as the Encore, and G-II Contender.  The side kick will not accept any other barrels.

[Mac11700]

Well I'm home from work now...and  Thanks John for all your helpfull answers and the link.... and..for posting my  dumb question...


Great info guys..... keep it coming...and I want to thank Longcruise and Primer for the links....I'll be going over everything again with you all...dang I'm feeling the urge to go buy a BP gun now.......


Mac

[bubba]

Mac for the record I was in wally world thismorning and say the speed sabots. It says right on them can be trimmed for 2 pellets

[Mac11700]

Thanks Bubba.....I'll have to give them a try when I get set up...


Mac