Author Topic: Barrel fouling from ballistic silvertip ammo (Read 1291 times)

clodbuster · « **on:** October 09, 2004, 08:50:36 AM »

Got out my Savage 99 in 308 Win to practice a little for deer season and couldn't keep three shots on a paper plate at 100 yds. where it had previously delivered 2-3 inch groups with most ammo. Thought the scope had gone haywire so it was swapped. No improvement!!! Tried ammo other than the 150 gr Ball. Silvertip I was using the last couple seasons--you guessed it--No improvement!!! Put in one of those electro-cleaning gadgets and lord almighty-- the black gunk came rolling out patch after patch after patch. I had been cleaning the barrel in a standard way with breakfree clp and patch/brush/patch etc until clean--not
Back to the range last weekend. HUGE improvement Using RemmingtonPSP 150 gr. there are groups and they are back on the plate. The cleanup afterward yielded more black crud but not as bad as before. What gives with the black coating in the Win Ballistic silvertip? They should give a warning on the box Extra cleaning required!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gunnut69 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 10, 2004, 10:43:55 AM »

CLP is a solvent based profuct that cleans powder fouling, as does Hoppes #9. These products don't remove jacket matel fouling... the elctro chemical cleaner does. For cleaning jacket fouling a bit easier than the electro chemical device there are bore cleaners marked for removing copper fouling. I use Sweets 7.62 as its quicker than most and very effective. Be very sure to read and follow the directions and they'll work just great..

clodbuster · « **Reply #2 on:** October 11, 2004, 12:03:54 PM »

Gunnut69 Doesn't the Ballistic S-T ammo have a moly coating? I don't have any left to check. I used Shooters Choice copper remover with ammonia and that didn't remove the black stuff and I didn't get any bluegreen on the patches either. After the last range session (20 rds)with Remmington 150 pspcl I couldn't get any copper out with the shooters choice. The Remmammo shot very small groups for this gun and this bullet will easily take down a skinny little Mo whitetail.
Thanks for all your good feedback to me and others on this topic.

New Hampshire · « **Reply #3 on:** October 11, 2004, 02:08:06 PM »

Im not sure, but I believe Nosler (well Winchester+Nosler=Combined Tech. series bullets) calls it Lubalox or something like that. I dont believe it actuall is moly though.
Brian M.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2004, 08:25:00 AM »

If the ammo contained black colored bullets they were coated via a proprietary process with a material containing moly.. It can be very difficult to remove and it is strongly suggested by the makers that the bore be 'CLEAN' before it is used. I have heard of some real nasties used to clean this stuff and have avoided it's use for that reason. I would contact winchester and ask what they reccomend to remove the moly fouling. Most that I have spoken too used a mildly abrasive bore cleaner to get the moly out, most used J-B Bore cleaner as the final cleaner...and a brush.

Patriot_1776 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2004, 07:45:28 PM »

An aquaintance I have who is a gunsmith, and in my opinion, a great target expert, mentioned to me the downsides of coated bullets. One thing he stated, was the coating, Lubalox, moly, or even the Barnes XLC coating, gets into the pores of the barrel. Sounds silly, I know, but no doubt there are such things as microscopic pockets inside the barrel, in which this stuff can build up. He said that when it builds up, and you switch to a conventional un-coated bullet, it can cause the bullet to "chatter." As you probably know, that means vibrate excessively inside the barrel. This leads most often to in-accuracy, and accelerated barrel wear. In my opinion, it does not mean the coated bullets are destructive; it just means CLEAN THE BARREL THOROUGHLY!!!!!! In my experience, I have two favorite cleaners. For my pistols, I use Butch's Bore Shine; and for my rifles, I use the Barnes CR-10. (Bore Shine) Great stuff in my opinion, as with pistols---45ACP, 9mm, even my parent's 357 mags, the Bore Shine works marvelously. Being the pistols aren't too high velocity, copper fouling isn't a severe symptom of use. Even if there is minimal copper, it gets it out pretty fast. As for my rifles, the CR-10 gets that wretched copper (and powder fouling) out faster than any other type of cleaner I've tried: Hoppes, Kleenbore, etc. But this is my two cents worth, no more. But as one experiments with different bullets, also experiment with other cleaners; you may be surprised.

Patriot

gunnut69 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 13, 2004, 08:17:39 AM »

The problem is that the CR-10 and other fouling removal compounds are greared to removing normal jacket metal fouling.. The Moly is not affected by the ammounia based copper removers. It has a natural affinity for metals and must be manually (read - abrasively) removed. That's why the J-B BorePaste... It's a mildly abrasive material that could even be said to be a very mild polish.. As I heard the problem with the moly fouling is the trapped jacket metal. If the bore was not thoroughly cleaned before moly was applied the jacket metal is trapped in the bore and is protected from chemical removers by the moly. The metal then holds moisture against the barrel and rust occcurs. I never saw any real gains with moly so didn't experiment with it..glad I didn't.. On the other hand I've seen folks who were very happy with the moly and suffered no ill effects... Clean the rifle and use J-B to polish the bore.. Follow directions and you'll end up with a better barrel than you started with..

Dand · « **Reply #7 on:** October 13, 2004, 08:43:15 AM »

There are a lot of new bore cleaners out these days and some claim to remove moly compounds.

I don't use many coated bullets but I have been experimenting with a new cleaner called Wipe-out. It claims to tackle copper, moly, carbon, and powder fouling but NOT lead. It is an easy to use foam that you spray into the bore and let sit. The instructions say leave sit for 15 min or so but I have found over night is better after shooting 20+ rounds of standard Barnes X bullets in my 300 win mag. I like that I'm not running the cleaning rod up and down my bore so much. The stuff has no smell at all but they warn it might irritate skin. I have not had any problems when it got on my skin. It doesn't seem to have those truly nasty trichlor?

chemicals like Shooter's Choice and others.

I expect to be experimenting with some coated CT partitions and XLC Barnes this winter and I'll see how the Wipe out works.
for more info check out their web site at:

http://www.sharpshootr.com/wipeout.htm

I usually run some Shooter's Choice or Butches Bore shine down the bore first - at the range while the barrel is hot. Once home I dry the bore and squirt in the Wipe out.

I think I've seen some other similar stuff advertised lately.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2004, 08:52:52 AM »

I'vs seen the adds for WipOut but nothing from real people.. I'd be interested in your results.. Always looking for a better product to clean those bores with...

Dand · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2004, 02:01:53 PM »

Well I started using it this summer while I was working up loads for my 300 win. Seems to work pretty good but it isn't quite as fast as the ads suggest. A couple times when I'd run 25-40 rounds of Nosler, Speer, and X bullets through the rifle, it took a couple over night treatments plus some standard scrubbing to get the bore clean. But one instance I think I had run Sweet's down the hot barrel thinking I was done for the day. Then decided to shoot more anf forgot to dry out the barrel. Copper fouling was real bad that time. I wonder if putting Sweets in a hot bore then firing 10-15 more rounds might have added to the fouling.

I started using Wipe Out after consulting an aquaintance who is EXTREMELY meticulous and knowledgeable about his guns. He is using Wipe Out.

Both our wives appreciate the lack of smell. I like that I'm reducing my exposure to that trichlor stuff.

I like that I can buy it by mail - here in remote Alaska we're not allowed to mail order a lot of the flamable stuff. I use a clear vinyl tube fit over the can spout to get it into the breech.

Lately I've also tried Blue Wonder - another ammonia product - but I haven't noticed it to be any better than Sweets.

This gets me to another question. Any chemists reading? I have been running all sorts of cleaners down my bores and wonder if there is a risk from mixing these potions - even in tiny amounts - here's a list of stuff on my bench:

Hoppe's #9, Butch's Bore Shine, Shooter's Choice, Blue Wonder, Wipe Out, Sweet's 7.62 - and heck there are 2 other products but I can't remember their names one is a green ammonia compound.

Bug · « **Reply #10 on:** October 17, 2004, 01:57:31 AM »

I'm no chemist, But... Most manufacturers and knowledgeable shooters recommend that you DO NOT mix bore cleaners. It's not from a Has-Mat standpoint, but mixing some cleaners leads to rapid etching of the bore. This is mentioned mostly in conjunction with chrome moly bbls. I don't know if stainless would resist this, or not. At any rate, probably best to patch one cleaner out, before going to another. I always do. JMHO...............Bug.

Hellrazor · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2004, 10:23:01 AM »

Don't be to fast with mixing ammonia and anything with 'chlor' in it. Chlorine aka bleach and ammonia created a nice poisen gas. I am not sure all byproducts made with some form of chlorine will do this, but i don't expect to try it either.

Bug · « **Reply #12 on:** October 18, 2004, 12:42:57 PM »

Excellent point, Hellrazor. I had forgotten about making chlorine gas... It's the same stuff that was used in the war. And, it's also hell on gophers (moles)!