Author Topic: My new 223 (Read 1397 times)

BIGBOREFAN · « **on:** November 03, 2004, 08:56:28 AM »

Well I got my stainless 223 barrel today from MarkA. I went home at lunch time and installed it on my case hardened SB1 reciever. It locks up tighter than a rich mans wallet. Now I'm just waiting on my AR15 style stock and forearm for it. I also switched the scope from my 22 mag. to the 223. It is a 6-24x42 Tasco mil-dot. I know some may say not to shoot the 223 on a shotgun reciever, but personally I do not see a problem. I would not shoot any rifle caliber larger than 223 on it. MarkA says the 223 shot the winny white box well. The stainless barrel looks good with the case hardened reciever. Now if my stock would just get here.

BBF

handirifle · « **Reply #1 on:** November 03, 2004, 01:32:26 PM »

BBF
Just watch real close for signs of frame stretching and overpressure on the cases.

I can't see a prob with all that steel, but I am not a smith either.

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 03, 2004, 01:36:10 PM »

BBF-Just my opinion but most modern day rifle rounds have a 50,000psi working pressure and some surplus military rounds are loaded even hotter. This is much higher than shotgun rounds operate at. I would do a little research before touching one of these off 10 inches from my face. :money: :eek:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 03, 2004, 02:20:52 PM »

Oh oh...Looks like the .223 rem has an average max pressure of 55,000psi.... :eek:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

MSP Ret · « **Reply #4 on:** November 03, 2004, 02:56:27 PM »

BBF, Please, please do not use that .223 barrel on the shotgun frame!!! It is not safe, pure and simple. You will be lucky if it stretches only or if you catch it with a slight crack only. You could actually blow a hole right into the rear of the breech face about the size of the back of that .223 case. It has happened to others here. Don't do it buddy. I was next in line for that barrel and although I missed it I am glad a good guy here got it. Don't take a chance on getting hurt with it after you were lucky enough to get it. Shooting that .223 barrel on a shotgun reciever is a lot different that shooting a .357 Mag barrel on one....<><.... :shock:

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #5 on:** November 03, 2004, 04:07:52 PM »

H&R offered the .222 and the .223 on the older, much weaker action. I'm surprised to hear of trouble on an SB-1. However, it if happened even once, it's something to be concerned about.

What we are worried about here is case head thrust rather than pressure, per se. Because to the difference in case ID, the case head thrust of the .223 at 55k is very close to the case head thrust of the .44 Mag at 40k.

My guess would be that the blowup was case failure rather than rifle failure. The .223 is already operating at close to case strength limits. If any of a number of things raise that pressure much, the primer pocket expands and the gas vents back through the firing pin hole, flamecutting that hole as it goes. The strength of the rifle has nothing to do with that. Once the gas gets loose, it'll cut.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 03, 2004, 06:53:48 PM »

The story I got from talking to a few folks at NEF a while back was that the SB-2 frames are heat treated differently and to much higher specs than the shotgun frames... while it may work for hundreds of rounds without a hitch...let it go bad and you might possibly get hurt...I second that I wouldn't shoot it off a shotgun frame...no matter what I just wouldn't chance it...... they just maybe using Marlins reasoning on these...but who really knows?

Mac

BIGBOREFAN · « **Reply #7 on:** November 04, 2004, 02:00:37 AM »

What is the difference in the SB1 receiver and the older and weaker reciever back in the 70's. What about what DJ said of the 222 and 223 on the older recievers. I would think the old Shakari in 45-70 as just as much case head pressure as the 223. Would you be bother by shooting one of the old 45-70's or a 44 mag. I have another shotgun reciever that looks like a rifle reciever. I actually had to call H&R and verify that it was a SB1 rather than a SB2. It is polished blue and looks just like a SB2 reciever inside, but it is a SB1. I have a SB2 reciever that my wifes 243 is on. I suppose I could use it. If I do not use her reciever than I just might go out and get a synthetic 45-70 so I can put the 223 barrel on. That gives me a reason to buy another Handi. Thanks for the concern guys. I'm still not wooried about firing it, but I would never recommend anybody else to do it. So maybe I will not either.

BBF

BIGBOREFAN · « **Reply #8 on:** November 04, 2004, 02:40:39 AM »

Well I found out something I did not know. That is that the operating pressure of a 12 gauge is only 12000 PSI. That is a big differnce and a long ways from 55000 PSI. I think I will not try this, but I sure would like to know how much pressure the SB1 reciever would take. I know H&R put out 357 mag, 44 mag, and 357 max at one time. The 357 Max runs at 40000 and it was on the old recievers. Of course jumping from 40000 to 55000 is still a big jump when talking pressure and SAFTEY. So, I will NOT try it. Thanks guys.

BBF

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 04, 2004, 02:52:49 AM »

BBF-The older frames all look the same from the outside appearance. It is how they are made and heat treating that is different. The older Shikari 45-70 would handle the recomended trap door loads which isn't near as hot as modern day 45-70 loads or handloads. We just don't want to see someone get injured. It's your business what you do but please use caution. You may be able to get away with it for a while but eventually something is going to give.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #10 on:** November 04, 2004, 05:04:44 AM »

BBF, thanks for reconsidering. Your to good of a guy to get hurt in this way. Besides if you got really hurt bad I'd have a a heck of a time convincing your wife to send me that stainless .223 barrel and that you always really wanted to let me have it anyway!! :-D ....<><.... :grin:

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 04, 2004, 05:27:55 AM »

BBF-I didn't see your last post until I had posted mine. I think you made a wise decision. I don't know you and have never met you but I would sure hate to see anyone get hurt. I am not an expert in the field of ballistics or metalurgy and maybe some people have gotten away with doing the same thing you wanted to do with the SB-1 reciever but why push the envelope. I think you made a wise decision. :money:

BIGBOREFAN · « **Reply #12 on:** November 04, 2004, 05:38:11 AM »

Thanks guys. I would still like to know what kind of limit H&R as on the SB1. Guess will just have to be satisfied with not knowing and not trying to test it.

BBF

Cottonwood · « **Reply #13 on:** November 04, 2004, 06:05:42 AM »

Quote from: BIGBOREFAN

Thanks guys. I would still like to know what kind of limit H&R as on the SB1. Guess will just have to be satisfied with not knowing and not trying to test it. BBF

This reminds me of a Griz attack that happened here in Montana. A couple came running back down the trail and told others, "DON'T GO UP THE TRAIL, THERE IS A GRIZ OVER THE RIDGE" Well two people just couldn't resist the temptation of the unknown, because they hadn't seen the bear. They were warned, and they were also attacked but lived to tell about it.

They have the scars now from not listening.... others will try putting a barrel on a SB-1 frame only to test the waters, even though they were forwarned not to.

I believe BBF will not be one of these that will test the waters here.

handirifle · « **Reply #14 on:** November 04, 2004, 07:10:46 AM »

BBF
I'd talk to NEF and give them the S# before going ahead. I have two older rifles, both SB1 receivers, and NEF chambered them for 223. I bought them that way. They have both recieved factory 30-30 barrels but NEF will not chamber for 243 or 308 etc.

While the case pressure is high on the 223 the surface area is small, and this concentrats pressure.

Like I said check with them, they might say they'd put a 223 barel on it. There are a lot of different SB1 receivers out there.

I do not know if todays shotgun receiver is the same as the old SB1 rifles.

MarkA · « **Reply #15 on:** November 04, 2004, 02:02:12 PM »

Stan, Please do not take this incorrectly, but I would not have sold you the barrel if I had known it would be used on a non rifle receiver. I saw the above about getting and rifle receiver and I know we and YOU for sure will be very GLAD about your decision!

BIGBOREFAN · « **Reply #16 on:** November 05, 2004, 02:23:46 AM »

MarkA when I seen you add for the barrel I had not planned on putting it on a SB1. Just got cheap at the last moment. Then the good friends that I have here reinforced what I already knew. Do not try it. It is not worth sacrificing my saftey and the ones around me. So do not worry.

BBF

yukonjim · « **Reply #17 on:** November 05, 2004, 03:52:55 AM »

I have a H&R 45/70 Model 155 Sharaki that shoot factory 300HP and 405FN in all the time. No problem. According to the SAAMI rifle pressure table a 45/70 is 28,000 so there would be no problem using it on a SB-1 frame. My understanding is that when H&R was manufacturing the Handi in different model numbers the shotgun and rifle receivers were all the same. That is same strength, i.e. SB-1 or equivalent. But the 22 Hornet and 30-30 were the highest chamber pressure rounds they chambered the barrels for (43,000 psi). Years ago I had a old H&R 12 gauge (snap on forearm) that I bought a 30-30 barrel for directly from H&R and shot lots of times with no problem except the the forearm popping off. Tape fixed that.

One way to settle the strength issue is to do a brinell hardness test on a older (i.e. H&R 158) receiver and a new SB-1 to see if they have equivalent hardness. Problem is it would leave a large indentation. I would prefer doing a Rockwell hardness (small indentation) but if the receiver is case hardened it would not be accurate.

Until we can find out what steel the older H&R and the new SB-1 receiver are made and how the are heat treated, this is going to forever be an on going issue. Personally I think the SB-1 will take pressure up to about 45,000 psi just like the H&R's did. Maybe some day I will sit down and do the calculations to prove it.

Just my to cents worth.

Yukonjim

cricman · « **Reply #18 on:** November 05, 2004, 05:16:20 AM »

Wow,

Just think of how spectacular a frame failure might be (done under a safe and controlled situation of course). I imagine that the case, trying to back out of the chamber, might torque the barrel away from the frame and open up a gap to let expanding gases escape. It might even shear the opening latch, causing the case to eject while hot gases are still expanding. Super Wow!, a hot case flying toward where a shooters face might be at about 800fps. Of course, that's just a guess of what might happen. If I had the loot, I'd buy a shotgun in a gauge I could use, and a rifle in, oh-say 25-06, and swap the barrels. I would lock the 25-06 on SB1 frame into a secure rest, and hide behind a sturdy, schrapnel proof barricade with a means to activate the trigger. Even if I destroyed the sb1, I could still use the shotgun barrel on the sb2. Heck, the 25-06 barrel may be usable, after replacing the ejector and ejector spring. But, I don't have the time or money. Maybe this is a job for Mythbusters!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** November 05, 2004, 06:01:11 AM »

A much simpler way to do it would be the way I proof new muzzleloader barrels after building the rifle. Tie the rifle to an old tire with the muzzle pointed down range, tie a loooong string to the trigger and get well away from the "test bench" and pull the string. Careful measurement taken before and after the test would tell you if there's a problem.

BBF, I suppose you're kickin yourself for sellin me the SB2 frame that you now could use! Don't fret, it's on my .45-70, it's been put to good use. :wink:

BIGBOREFAN · « **Reply #20 on:** November 05, 2004, 06:29:58 AM »

Yes, I am kicking myself Tim, but know I have a excuse to get a 308 handi :grin:

BBF

MSP Ret · « **Reply #21 on:** November 05, 2004, 07:42:18 AM »

BBF, along the lines of quickdtoo's post, if you have a financial breakdown and can't afford that new .308 Handi you could always sell me the stainless .223 barrel, I'd even be willing to give you and extra $5, just to help you out of a bad spot of course :-D ....<><.... :roll:

BIGBOREFAN · « **Reply #22 on:** November 05, 2004, 08:29:18 AM »

Hey thanks MSP :shock: But I better keep it. Hey, I tell you what I will do. I'll take that loud, fire belching, 19'' 280 Rem barrel of you hands for cheap. Say 50.00 dollars. :-D

BBF

MSP Ret · « **Reply #23 on:** November 05, 2004, 10:46:29 AM »

BBF, I would contemplate a swap for your stainless .223 but that little 19" beauty carries so great for a woods rifle that I just could not get myself to part with it. Now if we could just some way to clone these beauties we would both be happy(er!!!). I got a .22 Hornet front sight from H&R and had the barrel drilled and tapped by Eg Gagnon and installed that. Then I got a new WGRS with a blade instead of a peep sight (I can buy and install a peep in place of the blade if I want for about $5-$6 and use it as a ghost ring without the aperture) I than returned to my my friendly gunsmith Ed Gagnon (of the scope rail on 12 gauge barrel fame) and asked him to drill and tap one more hole in the rear of the reciever to mount the WGRS. Ed said he thinks I should have the barrel recowned and as usual I believe he was right. I will try to get it to him in a week or so to do that These darn guns are so much fun!!! And they can shoot!!!.....<><.... :grin:

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #24 on:** November 05, 2004, 11:01:34 AM »

LOL quickdtoo I haven't thought of the old tire and string thing for a long time. My Dad used to do that with old military guns. I remember he once tried to blow up a Jap 7.7 just to prove to my uncle that they were useless junk. It didn't happen. My uncle killed lots of deer with another Jap 7.7. He said that if "his brother-in-law" couldn't manage to blow one up they had to be good guns.