Author Topic: Adventures in the Crud Ring - Help! (Read 1518 times)

Pruts · « **on:** October 12, 2004, 07:37:56 AM »

Fellas,

Went to the range for the first time with my new Encore 50cal. I am using 100 grains of loose 777 FFG and a 200 grain Shockwave. I tried to spit patch/dry patch after every shot but was unable to because my cleaning jag kept getting stuck in the crud ring. I had to remove the breech plug after every shot to get the ramrod out because I couldn't pull it back out. I also found that if I tried to reload without cleaning it was virutally impossible to get the bullet seated on the powder (about 1/8" short of my mark, and I don't like that at all!). When the bullet was seated properly, which was only after a cleaning, I got very good accuracy. How can I stop my jag from getting stuck in the barrel? I'm concerned because in the field don't want to have to remove the breech plug and clean before loading again. I have read the 25ACP conversion threads, but I think if I can knock the crud ring down I'll be fine. Thanks in advance for any advice!

Pruts

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** October 12, 2004, 07:54:19 AM »

You need to work the cleaning patch into the fouling ring slowly, a little bit more with each stroke. If you ram it all the way through on the first stroke, it will be hard to remove, but if you take a little bite out of it one stroke at a time, working the patch/jag into it a little deeper at each stroke you'll make better progress with 6 strokes or so and it will be gone. This doesn't apply to just T7, all black powders propellants leave a fouling ring in the breech, some are just worse than others and heavy loads/projectiles leave more fouling.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2004, 09:40:00 AM »

Quote from: Pruts

Fellas,

Went to the range for the first time with my new Encore 50cal. I am using 100 grains of loose 777 FFG and a 200 grain Shockwave. I tried to spit patch/dry patch after every shot but was unable to because my cleaning jag kept getting stuck in the crud ring. I had to remove the breech plug after every shot to get the ramrod out because I couldn't pull it back out. I also found that if I tried to reload without cleaning it was virutally impossible to get the bullet seated on the powder (about 1/8" short of my mark, and I don't like that at all!). When the bullet was seated properly, which was only after a cleaning, I got very good accuracy. How can I stop my jag from getting stuck in the barrel? I'm concerned because in the field don't want to have to remove the breech plug and clean before loading again. I have read the 25ACP conversion threads, but I think if I can knock the crud ring down I'll be fine. Thanks in advance for any advice!

Pruts

That is why I went to the 25ACP breech plug. But I did not have it as bad as you have it.
But if you want to stay away from the 25ACP conversion, you may want to try Pyrodex, which is better on the crud ring problem. (Actually it was not a problem for me with Pyrodex).
Also you may want to try what I did with a patch puller instead of the jag. I used the patch puller, the thing you screw on a ram rod with the 2 wires. It is not pressing the patch tightly in the barrel and will get the crud out with a spit patch.
Hope it works for you.

rjo3491 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2004, 11:36:29 AM »

...agree with Quicktdoo above:

I learned quickly that working the patch back and forth just a little bit each time, enables you to get through the crud ring. The instant you feel friction, pull back and work the crud ring bit by bit until your're through it. If you go through all the way the first time you'll have to pull the plug and push the ramrod through the breech (as you have already learned). The ACP conversion does mitigate the problem, but I do still get a build up after several shots (with the same stuck ramrod problem).

Good luck!!

toytruck · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2004, 12:29:46 PM »

I agree with all advise above. I have the .50 Encore also and still using the 209 primers. I found that using straight rubbing alcohol to begin with to clean out all oils/solvents and dry patching keeps the crud ring to a minimum. I also clean between shots with the alcohol so the barrel stays the same. I have been using T7 3Fg and will try the 2Fg next time out.

I have some accuracy issues and hopefully that is caused by plastic fouling I didn't get out of the rifling. Use a .54 brush and Knight solvent if you are shooting sabots.

Pruts · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2004, 03:31:21 PM »

Thanks, fellas! I will try working that jag in a little at a time next time at the range. However, it sounds like more of a hassle than it's worth. I may end up with the 25ACP conversion before this is all said and done. Good luck to all this deer etc. season!

Pruts

herb40 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2004, 03:38:47 PM »

I know this sounds to simple but I just went to a two inch round cleaning patch instead of the standard two and one half inch patch.
The larger patch kept sticking on me using a spit patch but when I changed over to the smaller patch it was much easier to clean in between shots. once the barrel is free of the crud ring I use the larger patch if I am going to clean and stop shooting.

Oldsnow · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2004, 05:40:46 PM »

Before you spend $70. for a 25ACP conversion, try CCI primers. CCI primers are (not hot) and help with the crud ring. I also use Pyrodex in stead of 777. Alcohol is a good cleaner between shots and at clean up time.

Flatland Hunter · « **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2004, 04:20:47 AM »

Pruts, I agree with moat everything said:

1. Short strokes, when ring is contacted don't bull through, peck at it - it doesn't take that long
2. All barrels build up some sort of crud ring eventually, no matter the ignition source
3. Try CCI or Rem 410 primers, cooler ignition
4. Instead of a spit patch try a patch damp with a BP cleaner and then dry patch
5. Use a bore brush as needed to break up what the patch doesn't
6. Check with TC, and see what generation of breech plug you have, they are on their third and from reports I have read it seems to lessen the crud ring

upnorth · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2004, 04:46:55 AM »

I switched back to pyrodex rs. t-7 not worth the extra trouble. safety is more important to me anyways.

wild willy · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2004, 01:08:59 PM »

I bought the .25 acp plug it did't help that much with my gun I went back to prodex too I agree with upnorth for me t7 not worth the bother besides my encore groups better with prodex

jgalar · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2004, 05:09:24 PM »

Before ever firing a shot in my Rem700 ML I installed a standard percussion nipple in the gun. I have never had a crud ring or difficulty removing the breech plug. I have used Pyrodex, 777 and Clear Shot. I think the 209 primer system causes more problems than its worth. If a standard cap's fire can turn all the corners in a sidelock why does everyone think you need a 209 to fire an inline?!

AndyHass · « **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2004, 05:59:37 PM »

Others have pretty much covered it but I'll add to the pile.
My Omega was HORRIBLE with 777 and 209 primers. It took a long time to work the jag through the crud ring by advancing slowly, and sometimes I still got stuck. CCI primers were no better. Couldn't finr the Rem410 primers to try. Got the ACP conversion, and no more crud ring. Period.
Personally I refused to go back to Pyrodex because I hated the stuff. I agree that going back to a #11 ignition or musket cap would be fine, but I don't thing T/C makes one for these guns since they are pin-fired.
209s were a bad idea (IMHO) from the start. They were only used because they were convenient to insert, not because they have ANY other advantage. The requirements to fire a shotgun shell (ie you must build most of your pressure FAST, before the crimp blows) are much different from a ML or rifle. That is why the ACP conversion works so beautifully I think.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** October 13, 2004, 06:26:40 PM »

I have to agree that 209 ignition may be more trouble than it's worth from everyone's problems with it and methods to deal with the problems. Here in Washington state, ignition is limited to #11 or musket, no 209s. I've got musket nipples on my black diamonds and use flangeless RWS musket caps, plenty of fire compared to #11 caps. I use a short piece of surgical tubing over the cap and part of the nipple to keep water out, can get drenched and still works fine. T7 works fine and no more fouling ring than normally occurs with goex or pyro.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2004, 10:21:25 AM »

I converted my Omega to the .25ACP for the same reason and the crud ring is about 80% gone. You might want to watch the Black Mag3 column in this same site. I just ordered and received four pounds of the stuff and they actually recommend that you do not swab between shots and it is supposed to be corrusion free. Also supposed to be a little more energy measured grain for grain than black powder. Not supposed to make any crud ring.

Bullseye · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2004, 05:49:23 PM »

From my experience with my Encore, Pyrodex with 209, no crud ring. Black Powder with 209, no crud ring. 777 with 209, crud ring. Seems the problem is not the 209 but the 777, or the two are not compatable.

I can make the crud ring almost go away, or get very bad in a predictable way by vary things other than the primer.

Only reason I still fool with the 777 is because my hands do not stink for a day after shooting and cleaning my Encore.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 15, 2004, 01:08:30 AM »

Quote from: Bullseye

From my experience with my Encore, Pyrodex with 209, no crud ring. Black Powder with 209, no crud ring. 777 with 209, crud ring. Seems the problem is not the 209 but the 777, or the two are not compatable.

I can make the crud ring almost go away, or get very bad in a predictable way by vary things other than the primer.

Only reason I still fool with the 777 is because my hands do not stink for a day after shooting and cleaning my Encore.

Bullseye you are correct,but I have better accuracy with the triple7 so I had to make the choice of bad accuracy and 209's or triple7 and the 25ACP with better accuracy. It was a no brainier for me.

Flatland Hunter · « **Reply #17 on:** October 15, 2004, 03:49:52 AM »

I got the crud ring with T7 and Clearshot when using 209... very slight with #11 and Musket, but there if shooting long enough... in fact I first noticed it with Clearshot before T7 ever came out. I asked bluelk about it over on Realtree 3 years ago. Do you think it may have something to do with the fact that T7 and Clearshot is a sugar based propellant?

daddywpb · « **Reply #18 on:** October 18, 2004, 11:09:26 PM »

I had the same stuck ramrod problem in my Omega with two Pyrodex pellets. My wife gave me some spray cleaner called Simple Green that she was using to clean the bathroom. This stuff cuts BP residue better than any commercial BP solvent I've ever tried. I put some in a small spray bottle and squirt it on the first patch. I can feel the ramrod slide over the crud ring, and then pull it out. A second dry patch goes in and out easily, and I'm done. It has solved the problem for me.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** October 19, 2004, 03:14:18 AM »

Simple green will attack aluminum so be cautious if you are using it with an aluminum rod. The military banned it's use on airframes because of the corrosive nature on aluminum. FYI

toecutter · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2004, 09:01:51 AM »

I know I'm a little late on this, but I didn't see anyone mention It so I figured I would. At the range I keep the jag on one end of the rod and a .50 cal. brush on the other. For a tough crud ring, a pass with the brush and then a spit patch makes the barrel good as new. I'm sure others do the same but I didn't see it. Good luck.

sparks70 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 23, 2004, 03:11:04 PM »

777 works for me. It is the most accurate in my encore. I use one patch with rubbing alcohol between shots. In once and out. I turn the same patch over and push it in again. One more patch dry in and out turn it over in go in once more. All of the muzzloaders I have ever shot have build up. The more you shoot without cleaning the more buildup. The shockwaves are so difficult because they fit so tight. The tight fit helps with the accuracy. I always clean between shots because I am trying to simulate the clean first shot. It sounds like you guys are trying shoot ten shots without cleaning. This is not a big deal. Fifty cents for the alcohol. We are trying to get it right on the first shot.

Jim n Iowa · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2004, 05:26:43 PM »

I have had stuck rods when trying run a patch down after 4 shots. Now at the range I use a patch soaked with Windex/Vinegar every other shot followed by a dry patch. This came from a writer in Shooting Times Mike???. I use 209's and Pyro, or clean shot. I heard so much about T7 i just bought some.
Jim

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 24, 2004, 01:30:00 AM »

Quote from: Jim n Iowa

I have had stuck rods when trying run a patch down after 4 shots. Now at the range I use a patch soaked with Windex/Vinegar every other shot followed by a dry patch. This came from a writer in Shooting Times Mike???. I use 209's and Pyro, or clean shot. I heard so much about T7 i just bought some.
Jim

I have been using Windex/Vinegar for swabbing the barrel on my Shiloh Sharps for several years. I shoot black powder 45-70 loads. It works great. I use it when I am on the bench with my Encore or any of my muzzleloaders.

daddywpb · « **Reply #24 on:** October 24, 2004, 04:38:36 AM »

I've never heard of the windex/vinegar combo, but I'd like to try it. How much windex, and how much vinegar. White vinegar or regular, or does it matter? Thanks.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** October 24, 2004, 05:07:38 AM »

FYI from Hodgdon concerning vinegar and fouling relative to brass cases....

Quote

Cartridge cases that have been fired using Pyrodex require special care. As soon as possible after firing, cases should be de-primed and immersed in white vinegar. The acidity of the vinegar will neutralize the corrosive residues remaining in the case. Care should be taken to limit the soaking time of the cases in the vinegar to 10 minutes. Soaking for a longer time may cause etching of the brass case resulting in shortened case life. Rinse cases with clear water, dry and polish in a tumbler with corn cob or walnut shell media.

http://hodgdon.com/data/pyrodex/literature/metallic.php

Concerning T7...

Quote

You may have a cleaning and lubing procedure that has worked for you and your firearm that you would rather not change. That's fine. There are many good cleaning and lubricating products on the market today and all will work with Triple Seven. The only thing that is needed to clean the bore after shooting Triple Seven is tap water.

http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven/cleaning.php

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 24, 2004, 12:50:01 PM »

Quote from: daddywpb

I've never heard of the windex/vinegar combo, but I'd like to try it. How much windex, and how much vinegar. White vinegar or regular, or does it matter? Thanks.

I buy it in a bottle from Windex. It is not blue it is clear and says windex multi- service with vinegar, ammonia free. No need to mix it.