Author Topic: Fur caliber..... (Read 1206 times)

Nunk · « **on:** October 12, 2004, 06:31:17 PM »

I am buying a .223 and having it rebarreled to either a 17 Rem, 17 Mach IV, or 221 Fireball. I will be ordering a barrel. I would like the gun to be a great fur gun. In other words, I can shoot fox and coyotes and not have a huge exit wound. I will be using a light bullet, from either 25-42 grains, no bigger. I need some suggestions on the how long the barrel should be, I can get it as long as 27", and what rate of twist to get. The company is offering 1:9 twist only for the 17's and 8, 12, or 14 twists for the 221 Fireball. What are your thoughts on which is the best caliber of the three and do you have a suggestion for length and twist? How about bullet weights? I'll shoot some whistlepigs with it, but it will be my primary fox/yote gun out to 200 yards. Thanks!!

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 12, 2004, 06:47:42 PM »

it would probably be much cheaper to just get a 17 rem or 204 ruger than to buy a 223 and have it rebarreled. THere is absolutely nothing wrong with the .223 rem when it comes to fur hunting. THe 223 is probably the most versatile of the calibers you listed.

Nunk · « **Reply #2 on:** October 13, 2004, 04:34:54 AM »

Howdy. Not worried about expense that much. I should also say that I'm a lefty and getting a lefty gun then having it rebarreled actually is cheaper that going a full custom rifle. I can't find a lefty gun in any of those calibers, so rebarreling is the route I'll have to take. In my opinion, a .223 is too heavy for fox, especially when it comes to fur damage. However, thanks for the post. I want one of the three calibers listed and was looking for opinions. Should have said that from the beginning. Thanks!!

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #3 on:** October 13, 2004, 05:54:48 AM »

My vote(with your three choices), would go for the 17 MK IV. It's a nice little round, and if loaded with light HP or polymer tipped bullets, will most likely not exit if you hit the shoulders on a fox. If it does exit though, you're gonna have a huge mess of a hide. It should do great on the coyotes.

The 221 is also a very good round for calling, but it's gonna exit on foxes just about always, no matter what bullet or velocity you choose. My suggestion with it would be 55g SPs at moderate velocities(that's what I do in the 223). They'll exit, but the hole in the hide will be kept to a minimum.

On a "true" calling rifle, any barrel longer than 20" becomes a hinderance in my book. A nice light rifle with a barrel between 16", and 20" is right in it's element on a calling stand.

Just for the record, my primary calling rifle at the current time is a Ruger 77 Hornet. My load is 50g Sierra semi points at about 2400-2500 fps. This load is plenty for bobcats up to about 125 yards or so, but "usually" doesn't blow a big hole in a fox at normal ranges.

I also use my 223 at times with 55g Sierra SPs loaded to around 2700 fps. This is a very tough bullet, and again, gives similar results in the 223 as the 50g SMPs do in the Hornet.

oso45-70 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 13, 2004, 06:45:17 AM »

Nunk.
I too have the little Ruger 77 in 22 hornet and Jerry is right it getting the job done. The 221 is also a good option. I understand your situation being left handed and getting a rifle to fit your needs. The 17rem is a little rough on hides if you are under 100 yds on fox but for coyotes its great. Another round that might work for you would be a 218 bee and since you are starting from scratch that might be an option. And on barrel lenth i would think for a calling gun you wouldent want any thing longer than 20".
Even shorter would be fine. Well Sir i hope you the best of luck. Stay safe....Joe.........

Ladobe · « **Reply #5 on:** October 13, 2004, 08:10:43 AM »

I'd pick one of the 17's for sure. Neither would exit with a well placed shot.

Since you are talking rebarreling anyway... you might look at a wildcat (unless you are not into reloading). I'm acquiring parts and assembling new 17 fur rigs with 2 different 17 wildcats developed by a serious fur hunting pard that will push 26 gr. Genco's at well over 4000FPS. Both will be very efficient, extremely precise (accurate), won't exit and the shock value will be very high.

FFT anyway,

Ladobe

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 13, 2004, 09:52:07 AM »

If you don't mind a single shot I would look at either a G2 carbine or a encore rifle. They are nice and handy and works fine for both left and right handed people. I use a 22-250 encore for most of my calling here in AK. That way you can have all 3 calibers. Bullberry has a few 17 macIV barrels and a 17 hornet barrel ready to ship :grin: .

Catfish · « **Reply #7 on:** October 13, 2004, 01:04:59 PM »

For fox it about has to be a .17 cal. I have a .17 Ack. Hornet that would be a great fox gun. I push a .19 grn. Calhoon bullet at 3,600 fps. and she shoots flat out to about 300 yrds. I use H-4227 powder and load to the max., but there are other powders that will get you more velosity. I stay with the 4227 because of the accurace I get with it. The .17 Rem. would be alittle better choice if you were going to take a coyote too.

Nunk · « **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2004, 01:36:15 PM »

Thanks fellas. Keep them coming.

I should have told you as well that I will not reload for this and will be using all factory ammo. I have the gun now it's just a matter of sending it to be rebarreled (Should have thought of the Encore earlier, Bear!!). The caliber though, the caliber? LOL!!!

The 22 Hornet is starting to intrique me as well. Any other thoughts oso and Jerry?

Cost is not an object. I am not worried about a lack of ammo or if I forget the ammo or whatnot. I simply want one gun that can be an excellent fur gun for fox and coyotes and yet humanely kill them out to 200 yards. Knowing that, and knowing that I will not reload, I do not have even the slightest interest in that, what caliber and grain bullet will satisfy my requirements? I already have .25-06 for whistlepigs so it won't really be my main ghog gun although I'm sure I'll shoot a few under 200 yards.

Any other thoughts? Thanks!!

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2004, 08:12:44 PM »

Quote from: Nunk

The 22 Hornet is starting to intrique me as well. Any other thoughts oso and Jerry?

Since you'll be limited to only factory ammo, the 17 MK IV is definately out. The 221 can also be ruled out, as the limited factory offering will be too much for foxes I'm afraid. The 17 Remington will cut a fox nearly in half at times(seen it my self).

In all honesty, trying to get a factory load in nearly any caliber that will kill coyotes cleanly, and still be friendly to fox hides is gonna prove to be very tough. Your very best bet would be to either start handloading, or at least find a "reliably safe" friend that loads, and have him do your loading for you.

If you're completely reliant on factory ammo, then the Hornet might just be your only logical option. Most factory soft point 22 Hornet loads will knock a pretty decent exit hole on a fox, but at least it'll be sewable. The Hornet will also handle coyotes, and bobcats decently up to 150 yards or so. Normally when calling your ranges will fall short of 100 yards, so you need to be thinking about performance within that range no matter what caliber you decide to go with.

Nunk · « **Reply #10 on:** October 14, 2004, 05:59:21 AM »

I'm not too concerned about getting factory ammo, Jerry. It's out there. Here's what's available...

Remington

17 - 25 gr HP
17 - 20 gr Accutip

22Hornet - 45 gr PSP
22Hornet - 45 gr HP

221 Fireball - 50 gr Accutip Boattail

Cooper Ammunition

17 - 20 gr VMax
17 - 25 gr HP

17 Mach IV - 20 gr VMax
17 Mach IV - 25 gr HP

22Hornet - 37 gr HP
22Hornet - 42 gr HP

221 Fireball - 37 gr HP
221 Fireball - 42 gr HP

So, there are factory loads out there fellas. What's your thoughts? I have a lot of people telling me to reload. I don't reload and have no desire to. Hope this info helps you guys out with an opinion. Thanks so far!!

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #11 on:** October 14, 2004, 07:19:19 AM »

Thanks! I didn't realize that some of those loads were available.

With the offerings you listed, the only one that looks like a potentially good fur load is the 17 MK IV loaded with 20g V-Max bullets. That load will likely not exit on a fox, if you'll hit the shoulders on impact.

The 45g SP Hornet load will do as I listed above, and knock a pretty good hole, but shouldn't blow a fox up too awful bad.

Just about any of the others you listed are gonna ruin a fox hide beyond repair in most cases.

If you build a 17 MK IV, and use the 20g V-Max load(if it'll shoot good for you), I'd say that's your best option.

Nunk · « **Reply #12 on:** October 14, 2004, 07:31:01 AM »

Wouldn't the 20 gr be a bit light for yotes? Perfect for fox, but I'm not sure on performance on one of the bigger dogs. What do you think? Thanks.

Catfish · « **Reply #13 on:** October 15, 2004, 02:11:13 PM »

I think your best choice would be the .17 Rem. Never killed a fox with mine, but shot alot of groundhogs with it and never had an exit wound. I have had several with my .17 AH and the 19 grn. Calhoon bullets though. You might also consider the .204 Ruger, that`s going to be my next varmint rifle.
You have another consideration that I don`t think you`ve considered. If you already have an action unless you go with a round that is the same diameter as the one it is barreled in now you will have to have the bolt face worked on and that will run up the cost of the rifle enough that you would still be better of getting an Encore.

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #14 on:** October 16, 2004, 07:22:59 AM »

Quote from: Nunk

Wouldn't the 20 gr be a bit light for yotes? Perfect for fox, but I'm not sure on performance on one of the bigger dogs. What do you think? Thanks.

With a good chest shot to the vitals, I'm fairly ceartain that a coyote or bobcat is gonna be DOI.

I personally don't hunt with a 17 in any variation. I do visit the Coyote Gods forum quite often though, and nearly all of those guys swear by the 17s on coyotes. I even watched a great calling video from John Henry(he owns the site), and if I ever had any doubts about 17s, and coyotes, that video proved enough for my satisfaction. I have hunted with guys that were using the 17 Remington, and also a few of the 17 wildcat rounds, and I must say, they're pretty impressive right down to the 17 Ackley Hornet.

........................................................................................................

Catfish,

Foxes have extremely thin hides, and fairly tender mussle tissue. Groundhogs are very tough skinned, and fairly tough tissued too. A foxes body is also smaller in diamater than an adult groundhog, which also comes into play.

I've seen a few foxes shot with the 17 Remington at different ranges, and from various angles, and in nearly every instance the result was a fox nearly blown in half. I have to be "very" careful using my Hornet when calling, because even it can,and will ruin a fox hide if I make a less than good hit.

Catfish · « **Reply #15 on:** October 16, 2004, 12:43:39 PM »

Berger make a bullet they call their MEF, Max. Expantion Factor, that I will guarentee will not go through a fox. I have shot a few groundhog with them and from the rear they will not kill a groundhog. They will parlize his rear end but do not have the penitration to do any more. They are very accurate, but I quit useing them due to lack of penitration. The only fox I`ve ever shot with a center fire rifle were with a .270 and a varmint bullet, they were cut in 1/2.

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #16 on:** October 16, 2004, 01:09:42 PM »

You might be on to something with the Berger MEFs.

I've only used them in the Hornets, and 223s. In both calibers I only tried out some 52g MEFs(at least I'm thinking it was 52g?) I bought'em on sale at a local shop, and figured I'd try'em on groundhogs. They were very destructive in the Hornet, but as I remember, I shot several groundhogs with the 223 using them, and a few didn't exit on chest shots at closer ranges.

The little 17 caliber MEFs might just be the ticket for foxes.

Weatherby223 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 17, 2004, 09:33:38 PM »

I just use a .223Rem and load a light 40gn V-Max for Foxes over here in Australia. As you can see from this pic i took last friday night i hit him on the upper front leg/shoulder area. There was no exit wound at all as with the other three Foxes i shot that night also. If fur is what you are after just experiment with different Bullet weights and loads, even the little 17 can exit at times

MSP Ret · « **Reply #18 on:** October 18, 2004, 01:57:37 PM »

One other option that you might explore since you are a lefty is getting a nice Centerfire H&R Ultra Rifle (Fancy Handy Rifle, nice laminated stock and all) Then buying a .17 HMR rimfire barrel. Have the .17 HMR rimfire barrel rechambered to .17 REM and a new extractor fitted, fit the barrel to the reciever and your good to go. .17 Rem Heavy barrelled single shot tackdriver....<><.... :grin:

If this appeals to you it is not that difficult and I would be happy to help you through it if your not familiar with H&R's...

Nunk · « **Reply #19 on:** October 19, 2004, 03:33:22 PM »

Thanks catfish and Jerry!!

Weatherby - NICE!!!

MSP - thanks!! Could be an option. I want to see how much is going to be involved with the rebarreling and if there needs to be some bolt face work and if I'm going to have a magazine problem.

Thanks all!!

oso45-70 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 19, 2004, 06:35:44 PM »

Ladobe.
Where do you shoot fox that the 17rem will not exit ? I have had great luck messing up fox pelts with my 17 when shot cloaser than 100 yds.
On coyotes most of the time if i get them in the sholder the bullets won't exit..............Joe............

HarleyD · « **Reply #21 on:** October 22, 2004, 11:13:09 AM »

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this was from yesterday. if i can help, e mail me at copyright00001@yahoo.com

Nunk · « **Reply #22 on:** October 24, 2004, 11:19:32 AM »

Wow!! Impressive.

FYI fellas - I went with the .221 Fireball and will be shooting 37 grain hollow points!!

Thanks all!!