Author Topic: Can't Make That T/C Shoot? Then INDEX!  (Read 1761 times)

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Offline Javelina

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Can't Make That T/C Shoot? Then INDEX!
« on: July 11, 2003, 05:37:20 PM »
There’s a lot of advice on reloading for T/C accuracy out there.  “Do this and do that,” I’m sure you’ve heard and read a lot of advice.  Sometimes you hear an idea, you try it, and it works.  Sometimes the opposite is true, you try it, and it doesn’t work for whatever reason.  I’m like you all, I pick up bits and pieces and have for years – some good, some not so good.

Here’s a tip that will help you almost every time – and speaking of time, it takes a little extra, but I’ve found it to be worth the trade to get better accuracy, often MUCH better accuracy.  I’m not a competitive shooter by any means, and there are a lot of people who shoot rings around me, BUT, I have been able to really improve the accuracy of my T/C/s by INDEXING.

What is indexing?  It sounds like something done in an office, and it makes the same kind of sense.  If you put a file folder in with a group of other files, and you’re using the same filing system over and over to get the same results (i.e., being able to find the file anytime you want it in the same place you put it last time), this starts to sound like consistency, doesn’t it?  Now we’re getting somewhere.   :grin:

Consistency is what reloading is all about where accuracy is concerned.  If you have no consistency in your reloading practices, then you aren’t really sure where your bullets will end up.  This isn’t good, it’s not good for punching paper and it’s not good for making a clean kill afield.  In order for most of us to wring the maximum practical accuracy out of our guns, we need a system to follow.  Personally, I need a system that takes a lot of guesswork out of my procedures.  We need a system that will give us an easier way to have more confidence in our consistency.  That system is indexing.

Here’s how it works.  It’s simple, yet initially takes some extra time to mark your cases – take the time, reap the benefits, it’s that simple.  Any brass case you can find can be marked in some way.  You can use a Sharpie pen (although I find that the marks come off when I tumble my cases), some folks have tried various dyes, but the method I stay with is simply marking the edge of the rim with a small file (I’m extra lazy, so I use a Dremel for this task) just enough so you can see the mark you made both when viewing the rim from the side and when viewing the case head from the rear when you insert the case into the chamber.  Don’t make a mark deep enough to structurally weaken the case, the rim just has to be marked enough to be plainly seen.

Now, how do we use this mark in a manual reloading press?  First, make sure you have a way of placing your shellholders for each caliber into the press at the same angle every time you start reloading for that caliber.  You can mark the shellholder and match it up with a mark you make on your press with a Sharpie, or, you can make a scribed mark on both the shellholder and the press too – your choice (I used the Sharpie for this one).  Now you have your shellholder indexed and the rest will be easy.  Simply place the index mark on the case rim in the center of the shellholder opening each and every time you perform an operation on that case.  This provides you with an extra measure of consistency you weren’t getting before.  If you use manual priming tools like the Lee Priming Tool or similar equipment, do the same thing and place the index mark in the center of the shellholder opening every time you prime the case, this also provides consistency that you weren’t getting before.  When the bullet is seated, I use the index mark in a slightly different way than most folks do.  I align the index mark at the left side of the shellholder opening, seat 1/3 of the bullet, rotate the case clockwise 120 degrees or as close to it as I can come to it, seat the second 1/3 of the bullet, then rotate another 120 degrees and seat the final third of the bullet.  I’ve found that I reduce bullet run-out a lot this way, and you don’t have to be exact in the 120 degree part either.  It beats buying very expensive straight-line bullet seating dies (for me anyway) and I get about the same results for my purposes.  The final use for the index mark is when the bullet is loaded – I’ve found that the easiest way to align the mark is to center the case’s index mark with the middle of the extractor – EVERY TIME, NO EXCEPTIONS!  You’ll be amazed at how helpful indexing is to counteract poorly cut and off-center chambers in case you have one that is not concentric with the bore (there are quite a few like that out there).  T/C factory chambers often have a great propensity for not being concentric with the bore, but indexing really helps and can often make a real shooter out of a barrel that would have ended its life as a tent stake.  I have a factory Encore barrel in 223 Remington that was saved from this very fate by indexing.  It now shoots .4” to .5” five-shot groups as a rule rather than the 1.5” to 2.5” groups it previously shot.

Is indexing a fix-all?  No way, but it is another tool in your Contender and Encore reloading arsenal that goes along with other procedures that help provide consistency - proper resizing, case length trimming, uniforming primer pockets, consistently measuring powder charges and deburring flash holes, etc.  There is always something else you can do to your cases to make your reloads more consistent, make indexing one of your processes and see a positive difference in your accuracy results.

Safe and good shooting to you.

Javelina
If I had a dollar for every time I wanted another Contender or Encore, I'd have about $855,627,452,918

Offline KYODE

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Can't Make That T/C Shoot? Then INDEX!
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2003, 06:33:42 PM »
i'll have to say, that is very interesting. :grin:

Offline Javelina

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Indexing
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2003, 02:19:03 PM »
Gentlemen,

I'm surprised that indexing is not more widely used.  It almost always provides SOME improvement, and often provides GREAT improvement.  Given how easy it is to incorporate into someone's reloading process(es), I'm amazed at how many people either don't know about it, or don't do it if they DO know about it.  I suppose it all comes down to how important it is to an individual to achieve a T/C barrel's best accuracy.

To restate what I already said in the first post, it can often work miracles in factory barrels that have a few built-in challenges.  T/C barrels make really expensive tent stakes!

It's really worth the effort to try it a time or two, I think you'll like the results!   :grin:

Safe and good shooting to you.

Javelina
If I had a dollar for every time I wanted another Contender or Encore, I'd have about $855,627,452,918

Offline hunt4570

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indexing
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2003, 02:59:42 PM »
sounds good I think I'll try it next time.SGB
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Offline helobill

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Can't Make That T/C Shoot? Then INDEX!
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2003, 10:14:47 AM »
Some bench rest shooters have been doing this for years. Only neck sizing so the "fireformed" case will take into account any irregularities in the chamber. neck sizing vs. full length sizing will get a discussion going, that's for sure. And if you only neck size and then don't index you could end up with a round that won't chamber. Anyway, it's mentioned in the Lee reloading manual second edition.
Helicopter Bill

Offline jhalcott

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Can't Make That T/C Shoot? Then INDEX!
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2003, 12:31:54 PM »
I indexed my brass when I shot "sillywets" some years ago. I used WIN. brass. I loaded it all with the headstamp in the same location,I did not rotate it when seating the bullet. When I was on the line,I would put the "I" at the top.It was a little thing but my scores seemed to be better after I startedf this. I WIN was always in my head as I ran a string of targets.

Offline Moe

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Can't Make That T/C Shoot? Then INDEX!
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2003, 05:23:37 AM »
Maybe we should read this again. I am going to try this on the next batch of reloads.

Offline Bob/FLA

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Indexing
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2003, 08:43:03 AM »
Good post!
I have been doing some of these things for awhile and have seen improvement.  Thanks for going the exta mile and making such a great post.
Thanks!
Bob

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Offline Javelina

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Indexing
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2003, 10:19:57 AM »
Hello Moe,

If properly done, indexing is a great help when used in a single-shot firearm like the Contender and Encore.  It is not as helpful in a bolt gun or any firearm where the cartridge is mechanically chambered, but it still provides some improvement - particularly when you religiously use the 120 degree bullet-seating regimen described in my first post to reduce bullet run-out).  If you are using new cases, apply a physical index mark to them before you start any of the reloading process.  A Sharpie or similar liquid-based mark is helpful most of the time, but wears off in the case tumbling operation and is more difficult to use than a physical mark when placing the cartridge into a single-shot chamber with any kind of precision.  The mere fact that you start a case's useful life by applying an index mark and the continuation of indexing practices until the case is discarded is the best approach.

I am hopeful that you will find, as I have, that additional improvement is made when the case has been marked with an index mark and fired at least once in the intended chamber (yes, the best results will be achieved if the cartridges are fired repeatedly in the same gun/chamber) prior to being reloaded.  This is particularly noticeable as you continue to line up the physical index mark on the case (the one you made with a file or a Dremel Moto-Tool) with the same reference point (such as the center of the extractor) on the Contender or Encore each time that particular cartridge case is loaded and fired.

Being an honest man, I have to tell you that I am the laziest person on this plant – really - you have NO IDEA how lazy I am!  A procedure like this HAS to be worth my time for the sake of improved accuracy or I WOULDN'T EVEN CONSIDER DOING IT!  I'm far too lazy to waste time doing things that have no payback.  Indexing is a way of maximizing my reloading effort to make it worth my while - otherwise, I would just BUY ammunition for any caliber except a wildcat.  I have the money and I am willing to trade it for less work at the reloading bench by buying ammunition rather than making it for a factory caliber – UNLESS, there is a valuable payback.

Indexing has been worth my time - the hardest part of the entire operation is to make the index mark on the rim of the case, but I do it because it gives me a great return on my time investment.  I never liked working for a living either, but I did it because I got a paycheck/payback.  Indexing your brass is much the same in that you make an investment of time, and you get a reward for spending that small amount of time.  Magnify the benefits of indexing with consistency of shooting technique and you will be a better shooter, a much more confident shooter, and you will enjoy your sport much more than you do now because you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you did it YOURSELF and you have a greatly improved idea of where your bullets will go when you shoot them!

Safe and good shooting to you!   :D  

Javelina
If I had a dollar for every time I wanted another Contender or Encore, I'd have about $855,627,452,918

Offline Moe

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Started Indexing
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2003, 09:19:52 AM »
CHRISTmas eve I started indexing by using my Dremel tool to mark around 200 pieces of brass. Didn't take that long. Maybe 30 minutes. Also loading 20 rounds using the 120 degree rotation method. Pretty easy really, it goes quickly once you get started. Had been crimping some of my troublesome rounds, now I have loaded some without crimping to see if that will improve accuracy. Probably won't fire any until late next week. Hope everyone had a good Christmas.

Offline Javelina

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Indexing
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2003, 01:50:47 PM »
Hello Moe,

Just to be clear on one part of the system that I stick with religiously - I trim-to-length every time so that all the cases are exactly the same length.  Since I don't do it the other way, I can't prove one way or the other whether it helps a lot, a little or not at all.  Just know that I do it.  If you get good results without making all your cases a uniform length, COOL!

Let us know how your indexed ammo does.  I hope it will help your accuracy improve!

Safe and good shooting to you!   :D

Javelina
If I had a dollar for every time I wanted another Contender or Encore, I'd have about $855,627,452,918

Offline CWG

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Can't Make That T/C Shoot? Then INDEX!
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2003, 11:34:02 PM »
I had a HR Topper 22 hornet with a typical "ten minutes to quitin' time" chamber.
I used a jewelers file to mark the rim. Worked wonders, that and culled the too thin necks out of the main group.

Offline Hammer47

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Can't Make That T/C Shoot? Then INDEX!
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2003, 06:51:09 AM »
The more imperfect your chamber is to the true axis of the bore line, the more indexing will help.  I find that it offers no improvement in my benchrest rifles but offers significant improvement in the factory Contender chambers.  If you want to get around the hassle of indexing, just have your bbls chambered by a competent benchrest gunsmith.  Regards... Gary

Offline Jay HHI6818

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Can't Make That T/C Shoot? Then INDEX!
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2003, 02:19:03 AM »
I shared Javelina's post with the guys I shoot Silhouettes with and here is Doug's reply.

Hello Jay,

I index all centerfire rounds that I fire in a TC, but not when I'm at home
reloading fired cases.  Learned that trick from Bill U when I was having
trouble with brass wearing out fast in my 32-20 Contender barrel.  The chamberin that barrel is oversized with a slight bulge on one side.  If I index brass, cases last 10-12 reloadings.  Otherwise they split after 2-3 reloadings.  I also neck size where possible and only use a FL resizing die to bump the shoulder back every fourth or fifth time I size a case.

I started doing that with all of my TC Contender and Encore brass after I
noticed that the accuracy improved a great deal.  I understand that benchrest shooters do this with bolt guns, but I've never bothered in my XP.  If I'm running tight on time for the last shot in a string I'll toss the cartridge in the chamber any old way.  But if I have time I'll line the mark on the case up at 12:00 in the chamber.

I mark the brass with a sharpie by drawing a line between the "R-P" on Remington brass, through the "W" on Winchester and between the two stars on Starline brass.  It comes off when I polish brass, but it doesn't take long to mark them again as the last step in  the reloading process.  Not sure how much indexing improves accuracy in the TC.  But it's something that I do and it doesn't hurt.

Doug

Offline Javelina

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Indexing
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2004, 02:45:55 PM »
Hello Again All You T/C Types!

I should have known that if I mentioned indexing in the forend bedding post that I would be getting some email asking about how it's done.   :grin:

Again, since I'm so lazy and would rather post something once than multiple times, here is my original thread again on indexing.  Use the information and you will be pleasantly surprised - the less concentric your chamber is with the bore, the more it will help your accuracy.

Safe and good shooting to you all - watch out for each other out there in the woods when you're shooting your accurized T/C's!   :D

Javelina
If I had a dollar for every time I wanted another Contender or Encore, I'd have about $855,627,452,918

Offline Possum

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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2004, 03:07:05 PM »
This might be a really stupid question, but is this for full length sizing or neck sizing operations only.  I'm thinking it does not matter since consistancy is what you are after.  However, since I am wondering, can someone give me an answer?

Offline Javelina

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Indexing
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2004, 03:19:14 PM »
There are no stupid questions here, that's for sure!

Indexing is to provide CONSISTENCY for ANY reloading operation you perform.  Full length sizing, neck sizing, bullet seating, primer seating, case trimming, etc.  The index mark on the case rim is to ENSURE that you always align each case the same way as every other case during whatever operation you are performing, i.e., CONSISTENCY!

Make sure you put your case holder in the press the same way every time, mark it so you'll be sure.  Make sure you put the index mark on the case in the same place in the shell holder each time, if you use something like a Lee Priming Tool, put that shell holder in the same way every time and align each case's index mark in the same spot for each priming operation - I think you'll see what I'm talking about once you get started.  Line up the mark on the case rim with the left side of the shell holder opening or choose another physical reference point - it doesn't really matter how you line up the case mark, just do all your cases EXACTLY the same way - also make sure and look at what I said in the first post about bullet seating and how to rotate the bullet 120 degrees between seating consecutive thirds of the bullet.  Unless you're using some expensive straight-line seating dies the bullet seating part is very important too and you will get the hang of it VERY fast once you try it.  I've seen some small (AND LARGE) accuracy miracles performed when indexing has been used to load for T/C's and other types of single-shot firearms - make your T/C one of those miracles!

Safe and good shooting to you and good luck with your indexing!   :D

Javelina
If I had a dollar for every time I wanted another Contender or Encore, I'd have about $855,627,452,918

Offline Possum

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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2004, 05:11:17 PM »
Thank you for the reply.  I am very interested in this and think it makes sense.  I appreciate it.