Author Topic: Coyote impact on Fox  (Read 562 times)

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Offline traditionalhunter

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Coyote impact on Fox
« on: November 17, 2004, 06:05:30 AM »
I am trapping in a spot that had good fox sign in late September/early October time frame, but now I am not seeing the sign.  The area I am trapping was in beans at the time with a lot of sign, but now the beans have been harvested.  What are other trappers experience with situations like this?  Have you saw areas (bean fields, hayfields, etc.) have good sign until the field was harvested?  I have also heard a lot of coyote around this area.  I have been told that coyote will run fox out of the area.  Is this a true statement?  If so, I should probably shift my game plan from trapping fox to calling coyote (don't have any traps larger than 1.75 so I can't trap for coyote).  Thanks TH

Offline RdFx

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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2004, 06:14:45 AM »
the fox and yotes will still be in area.  Set up the edges of where been field and say hay fields meet.. or  points  where fields converge.  Your 175s should hold yotes providing you use short chain (six inches including two or three swivels and  cross stake or earth  anchor.... GOod luck

Offline traditionalhunter

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Coyote impact on Fox
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2004, 06:24:50 AM »
The 1.75 traps that I have are only 2 coiled and not baseplated.  Will this still be enough trap? The good thing is they are on short chain with 2 swivels.  It sounds like the story of once the coyotes move in ALL the foxes move out could have been someones misinformed opinion rather than fact.  Thanks TH

Offline Wackyquacker

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Coyote impact on Fox
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2004, 06:48:20 AM »
A 1.75 tricked out for sure will hold yotes.  Victor Wood Stream 1.75s out of the box with center swivels and a short chain passed the eastern coyote BMP.  I would venture a guess that all (well most anyhow) 1.75s and the Bridger 1.65s will hold yotes on 24 hr checks.  I would suggest 3.5 too 4 lbs pan tension on a short throw, e.g. night latched, to ensure good pad catches.

Fox and coyotes and their mutual relationships have been discussed by many.  The general consensus from observational input seems to be; the coyotes move in and the fox are gone.  For sure this trend has happened but the reason, in my mind remains unclear.  I tend to side with the notion of coyotes importing / spreading diseases rather than killing fox, as a main explanation.  I lean this way since there are many areas that have and still hold good populations of fox and coyotes in close proximity.  Also. in my country, localized selective pressure on the coyotes, has not resulted in the return of fox in numbers, i.e., this tends to argue against a coyote killing fox depredation as the principle mechanism.  We have had a number of bouts with parvo in our wild canines.  Since, coyotes travel much greater distances than fox, it is reasonable to predict they will repopulate decimated habitat much faster than fox.  Once established, the coyote presence may impact on the fox repopulation.  One could also guess that fox are more susceptible to some diseases than are coyotes.  

Taken together, the above lists of possibilities closely patterns many stories of populations impacted by diseases to which they previously were  unexposed.  The coyote being more mobile,  may tend to dominate after a disease induced alteration in the population.

Offline RdFx

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Okay, okay
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2004, 12:46:56 PM »
Traditionalhunter  to sum up what ol Wacky is saying ;
simply;

            Demographics    :grin:

Offline Wackyquacker

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Coyote impact on Fox
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2004, 03:41:42 PM »
Hey...I'm a Libertarian! :eek:

Ya know foxy that's a pretty big word for an old coon skinner to be throwin around.

Offline traditionalhunter

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Coyote impact on Fox
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2004, 12:49:43 AM »
Thanks Guys.  I just can't figure out what the problem is.  I am not catching like I thought I would in this area.  I will give it a few more days and then shift my traps to a few different spots in the area.  I am still learning so I know there are small (but important) things I am missing.  It comes with experience (I hope!!  :-) ).  On the trap size again.  Most guys trapping coyote in my area are using #3 Bridgers with lamenated jaws.  Good for coyote, but will hurt a fox.  My question to you guys is this, would it be better to use the 1.75 traps with some modification (in the thoughts that the areas I trap hold a population of both) to target both species with the same set? Or should I use lamenated #3 and target only coyote and 1.5-1.75 to target only fox?  What would you guys do?

Offline RdFx

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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2004, 01:01:17 AM »
Th you are going to catch yotes in fox traps and fox in yote traps.  You can use the threes  with alot of covering  or just use   175s.  With 175s you have to guide  well to get yote to set foot right  and use step down sets  but they will work... nbr 3s  will help you avoid some misses but  it depends  on if you want to use yr 175s or spend  money on bigger iron

Offline Wackyquacker

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Coyote impact on Fox
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2004, 04:27:54 AM »
Now you're getting to the heart of the problem.  The best situation for the critters (reduced injury) would be pad catches.  This means high pan tension on open coyote sets to exclude fox, from the way too big traps and insure solid down pressure for good coyote catches in the small traps.  

In my country the greys will go ANY place, so to target them, in a mixed population trapping situation, I can use small traps in tight places with guiding.  This type of set tends to exclude many coyotes.  

In coyote country you are well advised not to set a trap that is not modified to hold a coyote.  The Legetts used many 1.5s.  If you were to trick them out , including bubble welding the jaw tips or laminating and base plating, you could be reasonably confident in holding a dumb yote and taking fox uninjured.  (1.5 softies passed the BMPs)

In any case  you are most always better to make specific sets for fox, cats and coyotes.  If you have coyotes in your area stake and trap to hold them.

Sounds like the critters have moved to a different feed source.  If you aren't seeing sign maybe you could relocate and return to this spot later when the critters are back.

Offline traditionalhunter

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Coyote impact on Fox
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2004, 06:11:42 AM »
Thanks.  This information helps us new guys more than you would imagine.  I think I have read the BMP that you are talking about.  The website is
               www.iafwa.org    
               (Best management Practices For Trapping Coyotes)

Reading it was what got me started thinking about the trap sizes.  Once again, thanks for the info!

TH

Offline jim-NE

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Coyote impact on Fox
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2004, 01:23:05 AM »
I'm with you on the disease take, Wacky.
I've also thought that there are just too many "adaptability" traits in both species that there was no way one couldn't overcome the intrusion of the other into their respective boundaries. Fox and coyote both can be found well within city limits, too.
Around here, after the crops are out, the available cover and decent habitat remaining gets shared by many different critters. I've also thought about the size differences, and physically a fox can do some things in smaller spaces as far as maneuverability that a coyote just physically couldn't pull off, if one were to chase the other.
Diseases though, that's a different story all together. Even though they are different species, they share too many of the same biological traits that make them equally susceptible.
Preferred habitat is always an argument for either species, but often doesn't explain the hole in the ground at the city park...and that either species can emerge from that hole because they adapted and set up shop where life was good to them and their young.
Am I on the right track in my thinking here?

Offline RdFx

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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2004, 02:21:47 AM »
Bingo!  Yotes and fox , especially fox are in city limits  here and people are seeing fox  run off with thier house cats :>)).  Seen more yotes killed  close to town on roads  also.   Adaptability is the name of the canines game and they do it.