Author Topic: Lead hardness for casting: What is too hard for C&B?  (Read 1802 times)

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Offline dancbtmkr

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Lead hardness for casting: What is too hard for C&B?
« on: September 15, 2004, 04:28:42 PM »
I'm just getting back into casting, and I picked up some lead today at the local scrap yard.  I casted some of it,  and MAN is it hard.  It casted fine,  but it seemed to take a while to cool and to "set up" compared to what I'm used to.  After cool,  it is so hard I can't even blemish the surface with a fingernail.  It seems like it would make great "hard cast" bullets for my single action armys, but .......

Do cap and balls require soft lead?  How soft is soft enough?  Is there any metals that come in scrap lead besides tin and antimony that is damaging to a firearm, regardless of hardness?  I've poured off that hard lead for future use for hard cast because I thought it to be too hard for cap and ball use.

It seems that I need a crash course on metallurgy, and lead properties as it pertains to bullet making.

Can someone simplify this for me??

Thanks,
Bull Harris

Offline filmokentucky

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Lead hardness for casting: What is too har
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2004, 04:37:22 PM »
Bull-You need pure lead-absolutely soft as a baby's bottom. Sounds like
you used wheel weight alloy or something similar. Plumbing supply houses sell pure lead as do some hardware stores. Lead flashing is sold at building supply yards but is usually pretty costly. I use caulking lead from my local plumber's supply house, but it's been a while since I bought it and I don't recall the price-it varies according to scrap metal prices.
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Offline Big John Wyatt

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Lead hardness for casting: What is too har
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2004, 12:30:37 PM »
100% pure lead for cap and ball.
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Offline dancbtmkr

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hardness
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2004, 03:59:05 PM »
What is too hard to single action armys?  does it matter with black vs. smokeless?  I currently us commercially available bullets,  but I've got this stuff that is quite hard,  and do I do any damage by using bullet material that is really hard?

I have since got some lead sheets that I'm using for cap and ball rb's,  but I'm wondering about hard cast for single action armys.

Bull

Offline 445 SUPERMAG

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Lead hardness for casting: What is too har
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2004, 09:44:38 AM »
Wheel weight lead works just fine for my cap+baller's. After over 6000 balls outta my 58 Rem. it still shoots 1 1/2" groups offhand at 20yrds. I have 2, 5gal. buckets of weights so thats what im useing!
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Offline Gatofeo

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Lead hardness for casting: What is too har
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2004, 05:34:22 PM »
Wheelweights is about as hard as you want to go with a cap and ball revolver.
The problem lies in seating the ball. It requires force to seat the ball in the chamber, and if you use hard lead a considerable amount of force may have to be applied. This is hard on the rammer parts.
Wheelweights typically measure 9.5 Brinnel Hardness Number (BHN). Pure lead measures about 4 BHN. Lead alloy of 1 part tin to 20 parts lead (1:20) measures about 8.5 BHN. Linotype measures about 22 BHN; it's much too hard to use.
There is another problem when using hard bullets and black powder: leading. For reasons unknown, hard bullets tend to cause leading when propelled with black powder.
Conversely, soft bullets propelled by black powder cause no or very little leading, all things being equal (diameter, design, bullet lubricant, etc.).
I think you'll find that hard bullets, when used with black powder, will give you leading problems --- especially if you use a petroleum-based lubricant such as Alox.
To get the best accuracy from black powder loads, and to avoid leading, you must use a soft lead bullet, a lubricant made for black powder use such as SPG or Lyman Black Powder Gold and a bullet sized to no more than .001 over the diameter of the chamber mouth.

As far as using hard bullets in that Single Action Army with smokeless powder, no lead alloy bullet is too hard --- as long as you're not using maximum or near-maximum loads.
The Colt Single Action Army is not nearly as strong as the Ruger so pay particular attention to which loads you use when you peruse your reloading manual.
NEVER accept a load on the internet at face value until you've checked it against a recent reloading book or a reputable source. The only exception to this warning about the internet is the actual websites of the component makers themselves, such as Speer, Hornady, Alliant, Winchester, etc.
Don't use loads in books older than about 10 years. The reloading books of the 1970s or older are particularly suspect. Components have changed over the years, especially the powders.
The Unique powder made by DuPont in 1973 isn't the same critter as today's Unique made by Alliant.
Some years ago I read of an experiment to wear out a Smith & Wesson .38 Special using nothing but lead bullets. After firing 100,000 regular strength (not Plus-P) cartridges the testers gave up. There was very little wear on the revolver and it was still quite serviceable.
Conversely, jacketed bullets can cause measurable wear to a bore in 10,000 rounds or less.
The lesson is clear: if you wish your revolver to lastfor generations, you won't hot-rod it and you'll shoot lead bullets.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline jgalar

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Lead hardness for casting: What is too har
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2004, 04:15:01 AM »
I tried cast ball made from WW in both 36 and 44 cal. It felt like I would break the rammer loading them into the cylinders. I melted them down for use in cartridge guns and only use pure lead in muzzleloaders/cap and ball.

Offline Will52100

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Lead hardness for casting: What is too har
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2004, 09:40:08 PM »
I just started casting and casted about a dozen of 36 and 44 balls.  I shot the 36 withoug a problem, haven't tried the 44 yet.  I think they will be fine, but if I can find a source of relitivly pure lead I think that would work better.

It took a little more force to seat the balls, but not that much and recovered balls showed slightly less deformation so would probably be better for hunting.  I think for 31 cal. and guns without a loading leaver I would only use pure lead to aid in loading and reduce stress on the loading leaver screws.
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Offline filmokentucky

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Lead hardness for casting: What is too har
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2004, 06:46:40 AM »
Pure lead has been known to expand nicely, thereby creating a larger wound channel, yet it retains its weight. And it is easier on the revolver when loading. And I can use it in my long guns, too. Works for me.
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Offline Will52100

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Lead hardness for casting: What is too har
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2004, 06:38:19 PM »
Thats true and I doute I'd use a cap and ball for anything much bigger than rabbits, though close range and good shot placement with a Walker would bring down a deer.  All I'm saying is a little harder ball would probably penitrate a little more, though the differance in hardness is small enough that argueing balistics is most likely academic.

I only have a little over 5lbs. of pure lead from recovered round balls, and frankly would prefere using pure lead for round balls but around here it's hard to come by.  I did find that the stick on wheel wieghts are signifently softer than the steel clip on type, so if I can get enough of them to make a melt that may help.
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Offline Malamute

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Lead hardness for casting: What is too har
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2004, 02:43:43 PM »
I've been able to get pretty soft bullets from wheel weights by skimming all the alloy of that comes to the top when melting. Don't flux before skimming! just melt the weights and skim off everything that comes to the top. Fluxing mixes the alloys back into the lead, so don't flux until after skimming the alloys off.