Author Topic: Single Stage VS. Two Stage on Hunter  (Read 1120 times)

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Offline chunter

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Single Stage VS. Two Stage on Hunter
« on: November 29, 2004, 11:00:27 AM »
I must admit that when the two-stage triggers were allowed on the hunter gun I was a little taken back as to whether they fit the spirit of the rules of the hunter gun, and if they would stick around.

After a bit of soul searching and a gun history lesson I learned that these two stage triggers have been on rifles long before my time.  As I started playing around I realized that my 03-A3, and a few of my other surplus rifles have two stage triggers on them. So spirit of the rules issue was resolved for me...also the fact that was pointed out to me there has not been an increase in scores over the last couple years.  (I haven't seen any 40/40 or for that matter 60/60, or the forever elusive 80/80 aggregate.

I decided that these triggers couldn’t be that bad, so I tried a few.  I must admit they felt nice, especially the ones that had the adjustable LOP feature.  Well after being told that they were the only way to go, I decided to buy a 2-stage conversion kit for my 1712FWT.  It was cheap and would give me this new trendy trigger that was sure to raise my scores.

I went into the deal with cash in hand, determined to walk away with a 2-stage trigger on my rifle. However, after talking to the Anschutz certified dealer/gunsmith, I walked away with no 2-stage trigger and with a notion that I might want to re-think my shooting strategy.

The gunsmith gave me a few points to ponder:
         1. A two pound 2 stage trigger is nothing like the 3oz 2-stage trigger on my 54.18 due to the issue #2.  
         2. Many shooters are finding that their scores have gone down after switching to this new trigger. Reasoning: Say that you have a 2lb 2-stage trigger, with the weight set as 1.5lbs on the first stage and .5lbs on the second stage. As you move through the first stage, your trigger finger is holding 1.5lbs of weight. As you go into the second stage you are already holding 1.5lbs of weight and are trying to be able feel the remaining .5lbs of weight.  Many shooters have found difficulty in being able to tell when the second stage is going to break because due the finger already holding the 1.5lbs.  This becomes more apparent as you reduce the weight on the second stage and increase it on the first stage. This perceived loss of control on the second stage leads to early discharge, or to a jerking the trigger.
          3. A single-stage trigger can be shot like a two-stage trigger. You apply 1.5lbs+ of pressure as you move onto your target, as you settle you squeeze the last -.5lbs and the gun goes off.  This gives you less movement on the trigger and the ability to let off pressure without moving the trigger.
          4. The two-stage triggers they are putting on these hunting rifles are old technology, not on par with the new lighter 2-stage triggers on the 54.18msr for example.
          5. Many shooters have bought these triggers in hopes of fixing poor trigger control, and have found that it has made it worse.

There are other points that the gunsmith brought up, and I don't feel that I have made his case very strongly here. My biggest question comes down to the fact that it seems that you can shoot a single stage trigger as well as a two-stage trigger.  It seems that both triggers require quite a bit of practice to be able to learn trigger control. So the 2-stage trigger may not be the fix-all that many shooters have thought when they bought it.

I still am not 100% sure that I will not have a 2-stage trigger on my hunter, I am just trying to decided whether it is worth trying to relearn how to control this type of trigger.

So what is the consensus?  Are these triggers really cracked up to be what everyone thought they are?

I apologize about the lenght of this post,  I have been analyzing this issue for a few months now.

Offline Hornetx60

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Single Stage VS. Two Stage on Hunter
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2004, 11:55:44 AM »
Chunter, I have been using a two stage Trigger on my 1712 ever since they first came into the country last year. I like them!!   I have mine set up a little lighter than most shooters can or may want to handle. It is 1 lb 14 ozs. on the first stage and 4 ozs more on the 2nd stage. this gives a total of 2 lbs. 2 ozs.  which always keeps me cleanly above the minimum. The only thing I do to stop the wasted shots is I never pull up the first stage until my dot is in the target.  I don't have a problem with pulling through the 2nd stage but I do understand how some people do have a problem with these triggers.  I use the same method on my light trigger on my standard gun...never pull up the 1st stage until I'm on the animal.

Eh ..everyone has to find what works best for them. There definitely are good base standards to start from, and then experiment for yourself. When I first got into to competition shooting a very good shooter told me that if I wanted to be good I should watch what the best shooters do and the equipment they use. Then experiment with what I see until I find what works for me.  He was right. The experimentation and working on form and the mental game is what keeps this interesting! The personal challenge and good people to compete with make this a hell of a lot of fun. Bill R

Offline davei

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Single Stage VS. Two Stage on Hunter
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2004, 06:39:27 PM »
it is about pre-load.  a two stage trigger allows for more consistent pre-loading of the trigger.  if you do an excellent job of pre-loading your trigger already then there may not be a lot to gain from a two stage trigger.   my hunter and standard scores of been within percentage points of each other for a long time.  standard rifle - two stage trigger, hunter rifle - single stage trigger.   if mySako had a better, read more consistent trigger i think i would have out shot my Anschutz with it.

because i have nothing better to do and am always questing for that elusive third of an animal per match i've taken my 54.18 action with that wonderful trigger and made it into a hunter rifle.  should be an interesting experiment...  but it all comes down to a consistent trigger that breaks cleanly and the shooters trigger technique.  with out proper trigger skills it doesn't matter which way you go.
dave imas

Offline genphideaux

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Single Stage VS. Two Stage on Hunter
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2004, 02:01:46 AM »
davei,

you said "i've taken my 54.18 action with that wonderful trigger and made it into a hunter rifle".

please tell me more, I have had my 54.18 action bedded to a classic stock, but have not made this jump.

dawg

Offline dave imas

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Single Stage VS. Two Stage on Hunter
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2004, 07:32:54 AM »
Hey Dawg,

Popped the barrel out of the 54.18 action.  Threaded the action and screwed in a Shilen Match Select.  .900" - .700" taper.  About 24.5" long.  Fluted to save a bit of weight.  About 12oz saved.  Chambered with a tight match reamer.  Very similar to the Lilja Match chamber.  Pillar bedded in a McMillan stock.  A copy of the Sako Finnfire Hunter stock.

I should make it very clear that I didn't do any of this work!!!!!  I am lucky enough to have a benchrest smith about 20 minutes down the road.  All the bits in and get a rifle out in about 10 days.  Quite nice actually!  :)

dave

Offline genphideaux

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Single Stage VS. Two Stage on Hunter
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2004, 01:52:29 AM »
dave imas,

did you change the spings out on the trigger to get it up to 2lbs. ? If so how was the adjustments?
had planned on having a 5018 trigger put on a 1710, but was advised to try the 54.18 action to a classic stock route.

Thanks,
dawg

Offline dave imas

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Single Stage VS. Two Stage on Hunter
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2004, 04:33:27 AM »
Hi Dawg,

I get the rifle today and will then change out the spring.  Dan, however, has changed the spring on a couple of them already.  Perhaps, if he is kind enough, he will share his experience in that endeavor?  Daniel?

Offline DanDeMan

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Single Stage VS. Two Stage on Hunter
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2004, 07:23:50 AM »
Guys,

The spring required to up the trigger weight to 2lbs can be purchased from Gunsmithing, Inc. in CO.  They are $12 each, a bit steep.  The springs are not quite setup for ease of replacement.  They have circular ends that must be altered to make hooks so the spring can be attached to the trigger levers.  The first-stage spring is replaced with the heavy spring.  It is a bit tricky to replace the spring, not for the mechanically challenged.  The use of locking forceps is strongly recommended to aid in removing the original spring and installing the new, heavy one.

It is possible to adjust the altered trigger to have a 1 5/8 lb first-stage with a ½ lb second-stage.  The second-stage has a clean stop so one does not easily pull-through the second-stage by accident.  The final adjustment is a bit tricky.  It requires that all of the adjustment screws be used to get the sear engagement and first and second stages right.  

It is strongly recommended that a competent gunsmith do the work for you.
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline genphideaux

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Single Stage VS. Two Stage on Hunter
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2004, 08:01:04 AM »
DanDeMan and Dave imas

Thanks, have some work to do for the winter.

Dawg

Offline Hornetx60

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Single Stage VS. Two Stage on Hunter
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2004, 11:11:16 AM »
Dan Do you believe the 54.18 action to be a better action than the sporterized action used on the 1700 series? Is that the reasoning behind using it instead?  Just curious why you else you would choose to start with the heavier action when weight is a consideration also on a Hunter. I like the 54.18 action and it is easier and smoother operating....just pickin your brain!!!

Offline DanDeMan

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Single Stage VS. Two Stage on Hunter
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2004, 11:49:58 AM »
Hornetx60,

Using the 54 action to build a SBH around is ALL about the trigger.  If it was easy to fit the two-stage match trigger to a 1700 action that is what most would do.  I looked at fitting the 54xx trigger to a 1700 action.  No can do without major alteration.  The 1700 action is the old match action.
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline Hornetx60

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Single Stage VS. Two Stage on Hunter
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2004, 12:48:17 PM »
Thanks Dan I think its a great idea I'm having Mark Pharr put his stock on a 1712 of mine now. If that doesn't get'er done for me I might just have to modify a 5418.  .....and some think we are nuts.......LOL  all this for some rocks and pins..

Offline DanDeMan

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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2004, 02:05:23 PM »
Hor net xxx60…I just couldn’t help myself…sounds like a porno network for old codgers:-)

I'm convinced that the most successful humans are those that chase their muse.  If your muse is shooting silhouette matches then you've figured out how to have the most rewarding time between birth and death than most.  Go for it!!!

I’ve always had to deal with the confusion of others concerning that particular perspective, especially family members:-)  As my hero, Jim Hendrix, said, “I’m the one that’s gonna die….when it’s my time to die…so let me live my life….the way I want to.”  That has been my anthem for a long time.
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline Hornetx60

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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2004, 05:19:48 PM »
Dan De Man, Thats funny........  my moniker comes from my favorite caliber and ability to shoot it fairly well, when shooting IHMSA.
 
I know what you mean about defending your choice of a past time. It is strange how at work I'm the nut that is always shooting. But when someone has a gun question they come to me. It is also strange how many people are also closet gun enthusiasts....Shhh don't let anyone know....fortunately for me my wife used to shoot with me so I can get away with just about anything....