Author Topic: An Encouraging Article for a Change...  (Read 1156 times)

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Offline quickdtoo

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An Encouraging Article for a Change...
« on: November 28, 2004, 10:49:46 AM »
Quote
Violent hunters are not the rule


Published November 28, 2004


If a foreigner landed in a typical American rural town on a November weekend, she would quickly conclude that the national pastime is not baseball or football but deer hunting. Lifelong urbanites may have trouble grasping how many hunters tramp into the woods each year in hope of bringing home some venison. Most city dwellers, in fact, rarely think of hunting at all--until a gruesome incident in the news confirms their worst nightmares about guns.

The killing of six hunters in northwest Wisconsin last week certainly fell into that category. It was a shocking and, from all appearances, senseless explosion of violence that is bound to cast a bad light on all hunters.

From the conflicting statements by the accused killer and a surviving victim, you might conclude that a bunch of tiny-brained yahoos with an excess of testosterone got into a stupid argument that quickly overheated and led, predictably, to gunplay. Among Americans who dislike hunting, the thought has no doubt occurred: Is it so surprising that armed men with killing on their minds would sometimes end up killing each other?

But if there is anything striking about the episode, it is not how predictable it was but how unusual. The episode came as a shock because hunters so rarely shoot people--much less shoot them intentionally.

Conflicts about trespassing are part of hunting, particularly in areas where private land is widely intermixed with public land. But normally they are resolved in a calm, civil fashion. Sometimes, they require the involvement of law enforcement. It's almost unheard of--actually, until last week, it was entirely unheard of--for such confrontations to end in violence.

The most conspicuous fact about hunting in America is how safe it is. There are more than 15 million licensed hunters in this country, all armed with weapons that can easily kill a duck, a rabbit, a deer or a human being. All it takes is a split-second misjudgment or lapse of concentration to produce a lasting tragedy. But such tragedies are very much the exception.

In 2000, there were only 776 accidental deaths involving firearms, according to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In 2001, the number was 800. Gary Kleck, a firearms scholar at Florida State University, says accidents account for only about 3 percent of firearms-related deaths. By his estimate, only 16 percent of these accidents involve hunters--or about 128 deaths in 2001. In other words, in a typical year, one out of 117,000 hunters accidentally kills someone with a gun.

The fact that we occasionally hear how a hunter gunned down someone he mistook for a deer or a turkey doesn't mean it's very common. Just the opposite: Dog-bites-man is not news; man-bites-dog is news. There are 39 homicides a day in this country. The "normal" ones don't get much attention.

How dangerous is it to go hunting in the woods? Noting the volume of armed citizens out there and the scarcity of accidents, John Lott of the American Enterprise Institute says dryly, "It's hard to think of a safer place to be."

The infrequency of hunting-related fatalities is not the result of dumb luck. It stems from several things. One is that hunters, who are keenly aware of the damage that can be done with a gun, are very careful. One is that almost all of them are law-abiding.

Another is that they have learned the basics of hunting etiquette and know how to handle disputes in a peaceable manner. The presence of guns has a tendency to promote politeness. When hunters come across other hunters, the "in your face" approach is not usually the preferred one.

But advocates of sensible gun control can also point to the value of sound laws. Most states now require hunters born after a certain year to complete a hunter safety course before they can obtain a license. In Illinois, it's mandatory for anyone born after 1979. In Wisconsin, it applies to anyone born after 1972.

The same policy applies even in Southern states that are traditionally averse to gun regulation. Texas, for example, mandates safety training for hunters born after Sept. 1, 1971. These requirements, says Kleck, may account for some of the decline in total accidental gun deaths in recent years.

It may be hard for many non-hunters to picture a place where guns are commonly owned and frequently used that is also very safe. But in this country, those places are all around us, every hunting season.
E-mail: schapman@tribune.com

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-0411280044nov28,1,3270996.column?coll=chi-news-hed
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline jh45gun

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An Encouraging Article for a Change...
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2004, 02:18:50 PM »
Supprising some thing that is a positive note instead of a negative one coming out of a chicago newspaper. WIll wonders ever cease?  :roll:  :grin:
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Leverdude

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An Encouraging Article for a Change...
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2004, 04:32:18 PM »
Think we'll ever see that on CNN?

Thanks for sharing that.  :-)
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Offline quickdtoo

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An Encouraging Article for a Change...
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2004, 09:34:23 PM »
And another...

Quote
Posted on Sun, Nov. 28, 2004
 
 
 

Commentary by REV. ROGER A. WAID


Killings in Northwestern Wisconsin belie normal behavior of hunters


In writing of the eight deer hunters who were shot in Northwestern Wisconsin last week, News Tribune columnist Sam Cook and the newspaper's editorial of Nov. 23 both reflected on the irrationality of the event. It was irrational. Nearly every day the News Tribune carries stories of irrational actions. Take Tuesday's headline: "Jury convicts Lemieux of murder." He killed Irwin Teitelbaum with a baseball bat. Rational?

Perhaps our dumbfoundedness at the shootings of the eight hunters comes from the fact that almost never are any of these irrational acts associated with hunters. They are the ones with guns, yet they use them safely. I doubt many use a 20-round clip. Duck hinting permits only three shells. I use a double-barreled 20 gauge. Perhaps we are not tempted to open fire because we'd soon be out of shells.

I have no use for attack rifles like the SKS the suspect, Chai Vang, had. What does the target-range target for such a rifle look like? Is it not often a person? I have used targets shaped like animals, or the bulls-eye circles, or cans. A target shaped like a person prepares the shooter to aim where the bullet would kill the person. When my boys and I shot at rabbit targets, we didn't aim at the tail or the feet.

Have you ever worked with a person you would not go hunting with? I work with lots of good people, but I have worked with such people. Some may use my deer stand. To the credit of Minnesota and Wisconsin hunters, they handle it without serious incident. I would suggest "if anyone wants to take your coat, give him your cloak also..." (or deer stand.) That's from Jesus in Matthew 5:23. It is a good corrective to macho childishness that seems to say, "This is my deer stand. I built it. I want it now. You get out." Perhaps it's better to say, "OK, you are welcome to use my deer stand for a while. I will return in half an hour to use it," then leave.

In a related article in that same edition of the paper, one Jim Hill was quoted saying he would contact the sheriff if the person did not leave. Seems wise to me. Courtesy is wise as well.

I can understand how an irrational person or one not functioning well mentally could feel threatened by hunters with guns, especially if someone fired even a warning. If the person had an attack rifle with a 20-round clip there might be an impulsive aggressive response. But why bring an attack rifle with a 20-round or 70-round clip if you only want a deer? I cannot consider Vang a hunter within any family, hunting or ethical tradition known in our area. I would also feel the same about any hunter who threatened him or shot first.

Again, we can be proud of all of our hunters who have not caused the irrational murders reported on the front page of newspapers that so often tell of other irrational murders.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE REV. ROGER A. WAID is pastor of United Protestant Church in Silver Bay.

 
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/local/10292936.htm
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Dali Llama

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An Encouraging Article for a Change...
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2004, 01:48:52 AM »
Quote from: quickdtoo
And another...

Quote
I have no use for attack rifles like the SKS the suspect, Chai Vang, had. What does the target-range target for such a rifle look like? Is it not often a person?  

 
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/local/10292936.htm
Dali Llama say that Rev. Waid have no business railing against so-called "assault" rifles. :twisted:  :x  :evil:
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Offline Bigdog57

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An Encouraging Article for a Change...
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2004, 04:50:36 AM »
Targets that look like people?  Yep, it's called "preparing for the worst".  Most of us have done it - training for something we hope we won't have to do.  Basic self-defense.  Far more often, my SKS's are used to pepper those little black circles and the occasional sodacan or milk jug.  Having a five round magazine and some soft-point ammo, I wouldn't hesitate to use it for deer hunting - but I have a couple .30-30's better suited.

The type of gun is not the issue - Vang's commission of outright murder is.
No ban of 'military style' guns would've changed that.  He could have done just as much with a bolt-action or a lever gun.  Not caring about the law, why would he follow a ban anyway?  I've never understood why the Anti's seem so determined that a criminal will follow the law.  What part of "CRIMINAL" don't they understand?

Offline Dali Llama

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An Encouraging Article for a Change...
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2004, 01:55:52 AM »
Quote from: Bigdog57
The type of gun is not the issue - Vang's commission of outright murder is.
No ban of 'military style' guns would've changed that.  
Dali Llama concur, and add that turncoats such as Rev. Waid be even worse kind of enemy for those of us who support gun rights.
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Offline williamlayton

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An Encouraging Article for a Change...
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2004, 03:03:46 AM »
Dali-
I have read, re-read, and re-read again the Rev's writings and can find nothing in it that remotely evokes your understanding of him.
Blessings
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Offline jh45gun

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An Encouraging Article for a Change...
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2004, 05:42:42 AM »
Quote from: quickdtoo
And another...

Quote
Posted on Sun, Nov. 28, 2004
 
 
 

Commentary by REV. ROGER A. WAID


Killings in Northwestern Wisconsin belie normal behavior of hunters


In writing of the eight deer hunters who were shot in Northwestern Wisconsin last week, News Tribune columnist Sam Cook and the newspaper's editorial of Nov. 23 both reflected on the irrationality of the event. It was irrational. Nearly every day the News Tribune carries stories of irrational actions. Take Tuesday's headline: "Jury convicts Lemieux of murder." He killed Irwin Teitelbaum with a baseball bat. Rational?

Perhaps our dumbfoundedness at the shootings of the eight hunters comes from the fact that almost never are any of these irrational acts associated with hunters. They are the ones with guns, yet they use them safely. I doubt many use a 20-round clip. Duck hinting permits only three shells. I use a double-barreled 20 gauge. Perhaps we are not tempted to open fire because we'd soon be out of shells.

I have no use for attack rifles like the SKS the suspect, Chai Vang, had. What does the target-range target for such a rifle look like? Is it not often a person? I have used targets shaped like animals, or the bulls-eye circles, or cans. A target shaped like a person prepares the shooter to aim where the bullet would kill the person. When my boys and I shot at rabbit targets, we didn't aim at the tail or the feet.

Have you ever worked with a person you would not go hunting with? I work with lots of good people, but I have worked with such people. Some may use my deer stand. To the credit of Minnesota and Wisconsin hunters, they handle it without serious incident. I would suggest "if anyone wants to take your coat, give him your cloak also..." (or deer stand.) That's from Jesus in Matthew 5:23. It is a good corrective to macho childishness that seems to say, "This is my deer stand. I built it. I want it now. You get out." Perhaps it's better to say, "OK, you are welcome to use my deer stand for a while. I will return in half an hour to use it," then leave.

In a related article in that same edition of the paper, one Jim Hill was quoted saying he would contact the sheriff if the person did not leave. Seems wise to me. Courtesy is wise as well.

I can understand how an irrational person or one not functioning well mentally could feel threatened by hunters with guns, especially if someone fired even a warning. If the person had an attack rifle with a 20-round clip there might be an impulsive aggressive response. But why bring an attack rifle with a 20-round or 70-round clip if you only want a deer? I cannot consider Vang a hunter within any family, hunting or ethical tradition known in our area. I would also feel the same about any hunter who threatened him or shot first.

Again, we can be proud of all of our hunters who have not caused the irrational murders reported on the front page of newspapers that so often tell of other irrational murders.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE REV. ROGER A. WAID is pastor of United Protestant Church in Silver Bay.

 
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/local/10292936.htm



I read this article in Sundays paper as Duluth is right next door to us.; and the Duluth paper is the only sunday local paper we get.

The guy is a man of the cloth so I can see that he may have some issues with military style weapons.  Still his logic is faulty on the target range stuff. I have seen countless SKS and AK's and AR's M1's ect at the local range fireing at regular targets not any man ones. Even the few police dept and sheriff dept guys I have seen there shoot at regular targets so I do not know where this guy is seeing all the " man" targets as the range I go to in WI has as many MN guys there as WI.  I had a priest once who used the pulpit to rail against Concealed Carry in WI and he claimed he was a hunter also. Turned out that was false I checked and unless I know the guy I would suspect his hunting credentials. Just becauase this pastor says he is a hunter and he may be I would not trust it until I knew for sure.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Dali Llama

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An Encouraging Article for a Change...
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2004, 12:47:59 PM »
Quote from: williamlayton
Dali-
I have read, re-read, and re-read again the Rev's writings and can find nothing in it that remotely evokes your understanding of him.
Blessings
Dali Llama say williamlayton need look no further than following quote to understand Dali's discontent with Rev. Waid's commentary:

"I have no use for attack rifles like the SKS the suspect, Chai Vang, had. What does the target-range target for such a rifle look like? Is it not often a person? I have used targets shaped like animals, or the bulls-eye circles, or cans. A target shaped like a person prepares the shooter to aim where the bullet would kill the person."

Dali postulate that "attack rifle" phrasing be merely negative imagery created by gun control advocates.   Dali say such forces have now apparently adopted such descriptor in lieu of "assault rifle." :twisted:  :evil:  :x
AKA "Blademan52" from Marlin Talk

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2004, 11:18:17 PM »
I stand by my original statement--he is not anti-gun, by his statements, if he is telling the truth. So I cannot see the thought that he is the enemy or a turncoat.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2004, 02:03:09 AM »
Quote from: williamlayton
I stand by my original statement--he is not anti-gun, by his statements, if he is telling the truth. So I cannot see the thought that he is the enemy or a turncoat.

Dali Llama suggest that Rev. Waid is the worst  type of enemy of gun owners, because he and those of his ilk profess support for shooting sports, yet would only allow us to own certain "acceptable" weapons.  Dali respectfully ask williamlayton to reconsider following quote from so-called "Reverend" Waid:

"I have no use for attack rifles like the SKS the suspect, Chai Vang, had."[/color]

Dali ask under what auspices do Rev. Waid have right to question inalienable right of a gun owner to possess any weaponry of his/her own choosing??? :?   Dali ask why Rev. Waid use term like "attack rifle" to describe SKS??? :?   Dali say that such be merely synonym for "assault rifle" terminology frequently used by others who would take away all guns THEY do not deem in their infinite wisdom that others should possess.  Dali curious if williamlayton familiar with general process by which such liberals incrementally chip away at rights of others until others only left with rights THEY deem appropriate??? :?
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2004, 02:50:04 AM »
Well, he did say that, however, he did not say he was against them or advocate they not be allowed.
Now, he might be for that, however, from the post, I do not believe you do justice by reading that into the post.
If he is around to respond, that would be a good point to clarify.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2004, 05:26:24 AM »
Seems his logic is skewed IMO also, but at least the article is mostly pro hunting. I dont think anyone really needs a human target to learn where to shoot a person anyway. If you can hit a black dot you can kill a man.
I'v never shot at a human likeness target but see nothing wrong if someone chooses to do so. Its a piece of paper nuthing more.
 Condeming any gun is bad for our cause, people kill people nothing more nothing less.
To call an SKS an attack weapon is somewhat rediculous to anyone with knowledge of frearms. Not so much because its not an attack weapon but because such a term can be used to describe any gun one chooses & the same applies to "assault weapon" as used by the legislature.

Our country was won with flintlock weapons, they were assault or attack weapons at that time, next came single shot breech loaders & then single shot cartrige arms, both used by the military so I guess they are assault weapons as well. Then the advent of the lever action repeater certainly put more firepower in the hands of a rifleman than previous designs so these too must be attack weapons. Bolt actions were the choice of the military for decades so they must be a suitable attack arm. Now we have semi autos available to the public which are not desirable to the miltary who choose select fire arms capable of full auto fire.
So now for some reason, for the first time in America the people aren't trusted with the guns that our miltary requires us to buy for them. And to top it off lesser firearms are labeled assault weapons when no assault team in the world would go afield with a semiauto.

The second amendment according to some refers to a milita not an indivdual but when people attempt to form militias, even with the lesser arms with which we are trusted they are labeled whackos. That beside the point that a militia cant even be formed without armed ctizens & realistically, a militia consisting of men armed with the guns currently available to the common American will be ill suited for any real combat operations.

The plain simple truth is that the 2nd was intended to keep the PEOPLE as well armed as the military.

Every gun ever concieved was intended to shoot something & cause it harm, thats a no brainer & to argue that some guns are ok because they are used for hunting while others are "evil" because they are used by the military is a very bad thing for gun owners everywhere.
Every gun does damage to what gets shot. Every gun owner is responsable for his actions with a gun, be it a muzzle loader or an Uzi.

Seems to me that if these hunters that Vang shot had been armed with an evil assault weapon they could have much better defended themselves.

This man, who wrote this article, while meanng well does no small harm by labeling a gun as an "attack weapon"  Liberals sieze on this stuff to further their agenda of weakness & helplesness.

I tend to get long winded when I hear someone express the opinion that "Assault weapons" should be banned but my gun is ok because its a hunting gun.
You can hunt with an assault weapon if you choose and you can assault with a hunting gun, but you, the individual who squeezess that trigger are the hunter or assailant whichever the case may be & bear the ressponsbility. The weapon is simply a tool which like many other tools can be used for good or bad.

The sad fact is the majority of the people in the USA are weak spineless individuals who would rather have something in place to protect them than take responsability for their own saftey.

I take my saftey & that of my family personally & thats how I will defend them should the need arise. Personally.
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2004, 08:23:52 AM »
Quote from: williamlayton
Well, he did say that, however, he did not say he was against them or advocate they not be allowed.
Why do Rev. Waid so cavalierly deem SKS an "attack rifle," ask Dali Llama???
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Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2004, 08:28:17 AM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: williamlayton
Well, he did say that, however, he did not say he was against them or advocate they not be allowed.
Why do Rev. Waid so cavalierly deem SKS an "attack rifle," ask Dali Llama???



Might be he saw one get loose & attack someone, or perhaps he himself was attacked by one.  :)
Mine must be broken, I just brung it outside & couldnt get it to attack the neigbors cat.  :x
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2004, 08:58:15 AM »
Quote from: Leverdude
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: williamlayton
Well, he did say that, however, he did not say he was against them or advocate they not be allowed.
Why do Rev. Waid so cavalierly deem SKS an "attack rifle," ask Dali Llama???



Might be he saw one get loose & attack someone, or perhaps he himself was attacked by one.  :)
Mine must be broken, I just brung it outside & couldnt get it to attack the neigbors cat.  :x
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2004, 12:09:29 AM »
Dali-
I have been hoping for a response from the Revrend, until we get it we do not know what he means, where he is coming from or his stance on the question.
You may be correct, but I cannot jump to judgement on that point and well, you can't either.
Wish he would clarify the thought.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2004, 02:09:56 AM »
Quote from: williamlayton
Dali-

You may be correct, but I cannot jump to judgement on that point and well, you can't either.
Dali Llama opine that williamlayton in no position to direct what Dali can and cannot do. :twisted:  :x  :evil:
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2004, 08:31:26 AM »
Your correct, I can only think for myownself.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2004, 08:47:32 AM »
Quote from: williamlayton
Your correct, I can only think for myownself.
That be correct, respond Dali Llama.
AKA "Blademan52" from Marlin Talk