Author Topic: Barrel Length  (Read 951 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cbr_rob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Barrel Length
« on: December 08, 2004, 11:50:14 AM »
Can anyone tell me why it is that all the barrels are short. The only one I seen blessed with a 26" barrel is the 280 :cry: . What's up with that? I can understand trying to keep the rifles short, but they have no action, so they already are. Usually I wouldn't care, but I was disappointed to hear the 204 was only 24".

Rob

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
Barrel Length
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2004, 12:12:54 PM »
Hey Rob, welcome to GBO! :D  Actually the .25-06 Ultra comes in 26" and the .243 and .308 as well come in 24". I think the reason H&R uses shorter barrels is they are intended as carry hunting rifles and not benchrest so much or long range varmint hunting where every little bit of velocity would be appreciated. FWIW, the current .204 Ruger Handi has a 22" barrel.... just the new, yet to be released fluted barrels will be 24".
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline handirifle

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3570
    • http://www.handirifle.com
Barrel Length
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2004, 05:47:18 PM »
quick
What fluted barrels are you talkin about?
God, Family, and guns, in that order!

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
Barrel Length
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2004, 06:55:52 PM »
The new models listed at RSR Group, listed in frames so you need to do the search for firearms long guns and H&R, then on the second page of the results there are 3 new 24" heavy barreled fluted ultras in .204 ruger, .223 rem and .22-250
http://www.rsrgroup.com/cgi-bin/cgirpcux/WTM-002O
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline bajabill

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 712
Barrel Length
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2004, 08:06:39 PM »
I would prefer the standard length to be 24 inches.

Offline Duce

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 242
Barrel Length
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2004, 12:54:09 AM »
cbr_rob: I just got through tradeing off a .280 Remington barrel because it was 26". To me it just didn't balance well, and as far as velocity, with modern powders, most agree that you must go below 20" befor loss is a factor. The only plus for longer barrels, is with open sights, moves them farther apart, longer sight plain. Have A Good'un: :grin: <>< Duce:
What ever you'll put up with, is exactly what you'll get!!!!!

Offline cbr_rob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Barrel Length
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2004, 02:01:54 PM »
Quote from: Duce
cbr_rob: I just got through tradeing off a .280 Remington barrel because it was 26". To me it just didn't balance well, and as far as velocity, with modern powders, most agree that you must go below 20" befor loss is a factor. The only plus for longer barrels, is with open sights, moves them farther apart, longer sight plain. Have A Good'un: :grin: <>< Duce:

I would agree with you only to a point. For some calibers, typically the smaller ones this is true. However, for larger calibers, this is not. I reload every centerfire I shoot, and through great research have found that the extra 2"-4" makes a drastic difference. In the 270win for example, and I know every gun is different, but I notice a huge change. I used a Rem 700LSS mountain w/ a 22" barrel, an Encore w/ 24", and a Rem 700 custom w/ a 26" barrel for testing. I was able to achieve a max of 3000fps with the 22" about 3050-3100fps w/ the 24" and a very consistent 3280fps with the 26". I found the same with a 30-06 but not so drastic. I just think the option would be nice. That extra 200fps would mean getting or not getting that ram from across the valley or not. But then again, for the price, I guess I should shut my trap. Really was just wondering.

Rob

Offline riddleofsteel

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 391
Barrel Length
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2004, 03:00:42 PM »
Quote
most agree that you must go below 20" befor loss is a factor


Actually most agree that the 25-06 is one cartridge that really benefits from at least a 24" barrel.

"Everything including accuracy, recoil, trajectory, and down range punch considered, the .25-06 comes awfully close to measuring up as the all time ideal cartridge for hunting deer and pronghorn in open country. Probably the worst that could be said of the .25-06 is that it operates best in barrels no less than 24"."
The Reload Bench
...for him there was always the discipline of steel.

They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night.
Song of Solomon 3:8

Offline Duce

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 242
Barrel Length
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2004, 06:55:21 AM »
Fellows: Here some more info on barrel length and velocity, one from Tactical Magazine, another from Chuck Hawks:

During the development of the Tango 51, Tac Ops took a standard 26-inch barrel and cut it down to 18 inches in one-inch increments. Between 10 to 20 rounds were fired at each invrement. They found that a 20-inch barrel provides for a complete propellant burn and no velocity loss when using Federal Match 168-grain BTHP, a cartridge that has become something of a law enforcement standard. Going to an 18-inch barrel only resulted in a loss of 32 feet per second (fps).  Shorter barreled rifles are more versatile, being equally suitable for both urban and rural operations. According to Tac Ops, there isn't any need to go to the 26-inch barrel unless you want to go to a heavier bullet or push the round to higher velocity using more powder or use a slower burning powder. The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department's Special Enforcement Bureau (SEB) performed tests similar to those conducted by Tac Ops and came to similar conclusions.       


Velocity loss (or gain)

It is worth noting that the velocity figures published in ammunition brochures and reloading manuals are sometimes taken in barrels different in length from those supplied on many rifles. I have seen various estimates of how much velocity is lost (or gained) when a barrel is not the same length as the test barrel in which a cartridge was chronographed. Here are some of them.

The 2001 Edition of the Shooter's Bible states, in the introduction to the Centerfire Rifle Ballistics section, "Barrel length affects velocity, and at various rates depending on the load. As a rule, figure 50 fps per inch of barrel, plus or minus, if your barrel is longer or shorter than 22 inches." But they do not say what category of load to which this 50 fps average pertains.

Jack O'Connor wrote in The Rifle Book that, "The barrel shorter than standard has a velocity loss which averages about 25 foot-seconds for every inch cut off the barrel. Likewise, there is a velocity gain with a longer barrel." He went on to illustrate this using a .30-06 rifle shooting 180 grain bullets as an example, so his estimate was obviously for rifles in that general performance class.

Other authorities have tried to take into account the different velocity ranges within which modern cartridges operate. The Remington Catalog 2003 includes a "Centerfire Rifle Velocity Vs. Barrel Length" table that shows the following velocity changes for barrels shorter or longer than the test barrel length:

MV 2000-2500 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 10 fps.
MV 2500-3000 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 20 fps.
MV 3000-3500 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 30 fps.
MV 3500-4000 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 40 fps.


The 45th Edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook also has a table showing Center Fire Rifle Velocity Vs. Barrel Length. Their figures apply to barrels between 20 and 26 inches in length and agree with the Remington figures. The Lyman table shows the following approximate velocity changes:

For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 1000-2000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 5 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 2001-2500 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 10 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 2501-3000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 20 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 3001-3500 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 30 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 3501-4000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 40 fps.

The 43rd edition of the Lyman reloading Handbook gave some concrete examples of velocity loss for specific calibers and loads. The Lyman technicians chronographed some high velocity cartridges in rifles with barrels ranging in length from 26" down to 22" with the following results:

The average loss for the .243 Win./100 grain bullet was 29 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .264 Win. Mag./140 grain bullet was 32 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .300 H&H Mag./220 grain bullet was 25 fps per inch.

For standard high intensity cartridges in the same test, the Lyman technicians chronographed the cartridges in barrel lengths ranging in length from 24" down to 20" with the following results:

The average loss for the .270 Win./130 grain bullet was 37 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .270 Win./150 grain bullet was 32 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .300 Sav./180 grain bullet was 17 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .30-06/180 grain bullet was 15 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .35 Rem./200 grain bullet was 11 fps per inch.

After a bunch of disclaimers, the Lyman people concluded, "The rule of thumb is that high speed, high pressure cartridges shed more speed in short barrels than do the low speed, large bore types." It's funny, but that is what I had suspected all along!  

Looks to me as if barrel length will alway be a personnal preference and that most barrels over 20" will get'er done. Great Subject and Thread: :grin: <>< Duce:
What ever you'll put up with, is exactly what you'll get!!!!!

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
Barrel Length
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2004, 07:53:37 AM »
Thanks Duce, great info!! :wink:
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain