Light Primer Strikes

[timbertoes]

Hello NEF'rs;

recently got my 2nd  Handi, this one is a 25-06.

sadly, it has failed to fire the ammo quite a few times, and the depth of the primer strike is visibly shallower than on my other rfiles, including  my other nef in 45-70.

As the  gun is new, I am about to send it back.  however, I wonder  if anyone has some reccomendations to try out, before having to give it up for the repair time.  my only consolation would be to included a order for a 2nd barrel , if I do send it back.

I can also take it to the gun store, to thier gunsmith, but that means probably an extra week or two before it is even looked at.  I am not sure they even have facilities to fire the gun.
 

I used factory Remington ammo, and reloads in new Win. case with Win. primers.
out of about 50 rounds had about 10 that did not fire ever, and a few that took more strikes to fires.

I have never removed the trigger guts from a NEF......though I might be able to do that without making it worse, if you know what I mean.

thank ya!

[MSP Ret]

, clean it, clean it, clean it!!! Remove the wood and get a can of pressurized brake cleaner or carburator cleaner from the auto parts store, proceed to blow out all the machining shavings, oil and gunk that is in the reciever and especially in and around the hammer group and trigger mechanism.  They are notorious for coming from the factory loaded with "stuff", that's a technical word for crap...The stock is removed because brake cleaner will strip the finish off the wood...clean, dry and LIGHTLY oil or lubricate the gun and reassemble. It should be fixed, if not check back again for chapter 2, Merry Christmas!!....<><.... :grin:

[quickdtoo]

Another thing to check is the transfer bar system needs the trigger to be pulled fully to the rear for proper firing, if the transfer bar is slightly mistuned, the factory will make it right. Don't release pressure on the trigger at the hammer fall, follow through with a full pull to the rear. I'd check it with an empty primed case since you reload, before I sent it in, could just be a little operator error if the tuning of the transfer bar is a little off. If it still has a light pin mark, send it off. Like MSP says though, it could also be caused from gunk and machine filings in the action.

[timbertoes]

Thank Ya,

you see I had a sneaky suspicion, that the gun store was simpy going to clean it out, and give it back....possibly unfixed.....just like they did with a used Shotgun I bought there. LOL, well maybe not LOL.      

I did not want  to wait a week or two for a simple cleaning. !!

I will take your advice and give it a look inside and a cleaning.

This is a situation where I hope I DO find a burr or piece of shavings!!!

thanks, freinds.

[timbertoes]

P.S., if it makes any difference, this gun has a nice trigger pull compared to the 45-70. I dont have a pull scale, but it does surely seem to break without much creep...sitting here, I cant recall any creep at all... or a  LOT of finger force.

[safetysheriff]

Hello NEF'rs;

I used factory Remington ammo, and reloads in new Win. case with Win. primers.
out of about 50 rounds had about 10 that did not fire ever, and a few that took more strikes to fires.

thank ya!

tt'

when you get some primers that will fire when struck a second or third time -- that tells me they were possibly not seated properly/fully.   if these are your handloads  i suggest you put a little more pressure behind the primers to get them fully seated.     if they are factory loads they probably don't have the same problem......but they might.    the other problem might be one of headspace with the cartridge not being seated properly up against the 'datum point' in the chamber.    

for priming cases i'd suggest a forster bench-mounted unit, or else the hand-held RCBS tool that i've also used.    but the forster tool i have is the one that really 'closes the deal' on seating primers in tight pockets.

good shooting,

SS'

[quickdtoo]

I just bought a used sportster that hasn't had the trigger worked on, but it is surprisingly good, not as light as I can make it with a little honing, but still much better than all my others came from the factory.

[MSP Ret]

Hey quick, what do used Sportsters go for in your neck of the woods? I am wondering about the value (to a buyer, not a seller) of a used .22 LR Sportser?...Thanks and Merry Christmas....<><.... :grin:

[timbertoes]

SS,
yes , I was looking at the same things when this first occurred. (the gun has been out twice to the range).

here is a summary:

1. factory ammo:
Remington : 4 or 5 fail to fire, ever. several took two or three strikes.
Federal  All  19 that were fired, fired first time as expected.

2. reloads:
I use the lee prime, the unit that attaches to the press, with primer on ram, and shell in holder at top of Frame.

3. non-measured, visual observations
(here I mayl use wrong terminology cause I dont know it all tha well)

* the  base/rim of the case appears to perfectly flush with the barrel/chamber if not perhaps ever,ever,ever so slighty the case is further in.  I will feeler gauge this tonight if I can

*When determing COL for reloading, the bullets I use, and using the basic technique of a semi-loose bullet in a fired case, being pushed into the case by hitting the rifling,  the apparent COL
turns out to be exactly or within a few thou, of the COL listed, in my Lymans manual, for the same bullet listed. (this gives me a warm fuzzy feeling) LOL

4. lastly, in all of the ammo, the depth of the strikes appear to be very uniform. just darn light comapred to other guns/primer strikes.

I will go out on a limb and SWAG that the depth is at least 1/2 as much as any of my other rifles, though I have a CZ that strikes pretty darn deep, it seems. (might be pressure related)

My 25-06 reloads are within the Lyman and Lee powder charge reccomendations. using IMR4350 and some Varget



On the Positive side, I have not  had a stuck case    

.....And I sure enjoy the exchange of info with you guys!! thanks a million.

[MSP Ret]

Timbertoes, if you want to have some fun, after removing your reciever from the stock clean it with the brake cleaner over a folded old white sheet or an old white towel so you can see how much "crap" ( by the way, the technical terms "stuff" and "crap" can be used interchangeably!!) is actually flushed out by the spray cleaner, spray till it drips and spray some more, clean it all out....<><.... :grin:

[quickdtoo]

Hey quick, what do used Sportsters go for in your neck of the woods? I am wondering about the value (to a buyer, not a seller) of a used .22 LR Sportser?...Thanks and Merry Christmas....<><.... :grin:

I haven't looked at used NEFs, this one I got from a fellow Washingtonian that lives 150 miles from me that posted on Predatormasters that he was getting rid of it due to inaccuracy and he wanted a bolt hmr. I posted that I'd drive up and get it, he countered with a $125 proposal with japan built 3-9x Tasco and Millett Angle-Lok rings. FWIW, new Sportsters sell for $130-$150 here but can't find a .17hmr so I bought it. So far it looks like a good deal to me..the crown isn't perfect, think I'll use the ball bearing and valve grinding compound trick on it to touch it up. Other than that, I don't see anything wrong with it. He said he was getting only 2"-3" groups at 50yrds, pretty poor for a hmr. ....I like a challenge!! :wink:

[timbertoes]

Timbertoes, if you want to have some fun, after removing your reciever from the stock clean it with the brake cleaner over a folded old white sheet or an old white towel so you can see how much "crap" ( by the way, the technical terms "stuff" and "crap" can be used interchangeably!!) is actually flushed out by the spray cleaner, spray till it drips and spray some more, clean it all out....<><.... :grin:

 :eek:    

Yep, this should be lots of  fun.

uuuhhh, btw, I am guessing the stock is removed via a nut, accessed under the recoil pad..... ?      you would be correct if you guessed I have never looked at the manual... :-D

[Mac11700]

Like what has been said before...clean it...clean it...clean it...the get a  hand held Lee Auto prime...I've been using one for ...well ...let's just say a very long time...and I've yet had to have a primer not fully seat...one of the best $12.50 investments I made...they are slightly higher in cost now...

Mac

[MSP Ret]

Good Guess!!!, remove the recoil pad with a phillips screwdriver, then use a 9/16ths socket on one, perhaps 2, long extensions to remove the stock bolt. There is a washer on the bolt, do not lose it, it may be stuck to the inside of the stock, thats OK, as long as it's there. On synthetic stocks a thinwall socket is best, if you don't have one just force the standard socket onto the bolt head (only applies to standard style synthetic buttstocks)....<><.... :grin:

[Ditchdigger]

Hey Timbertoes you only about 45 miles from lik2hunt and I. I had my Arabian stallion in Crocketts Training for about a year thier in VanAlstyne.If you're ever up hear in Durant, holler at me. Digger

[timbertoes]

CQ DX, CQ DX de Timbertoes  (KA5TOY, but thats another forum)


hey hello, here is what I have found out!!!!


I put the reciver in my woodworking vise (lordr theres yet another forum)

and did the following:

 1. pulled back hammer. held trigger. slowly relased hammer. kept trigger held.  now when hammer is stopped against the frame, the firing pin protrudes .029 to .03 " (depth guage on end of digital calipers, the kind you uh, "borrow" from work).

2. did same thing again , only kept hammer out of the way, and pushed forward on transfer bar with end of a tool.
Pin now protrudes   .05 and some change   !!!!!

HMMMMMM.

3. grabbed up the 45-70, just opened the barrel and did the tirgger pulled hammer aganst frame thing, and  AT THE SAME TIME do that on the 25-06, and I can SEE the DIFFERENCE.

SO!!!

I am thinking I need to remove about .02" of metal from the Hammer face.

if I do that, I am sure the warranty wll be void. of course if H&R QC had caught this.....

I have all kinds of precision files, and diamond grit Honing "sticks" (for router bits), and dremels, etc....... so no doubt I can get some metal removed...... :eek:

I dont want to screw up by trying to remove the parts from the frame, so it would be outpatient syle surgery  :-D


What do you guys think?

[MSP Ret]

Here is what I think (be careful what you ask for, you might get it!!), did you clean it real good of all the "stuff" and "crap" that comes free in the actions of these fine guns when we buy them. If not don't even think of grinding the hammer face...one step at a time keeps me from screwing up (most of the time anyway), The least intrusive the fix the better. There is a continueum here that should be followed, easiest fix first..Anyway, thats what I think, for what it's worth....<><.... :grin:

[quickdtoo]

I wouldn't recommend doing anything invasive, if you do, H&R won't be of any help if it comes down to that. On the same token, I've read that if we do trigger jobs on em and it goes in for warranty work, they will return the trigger to the OEM pull weight which I think is 5lbs. That said, I suppose it just matters what you actually do. Ifn you were to make some minor changes that would be hard to detect and finish the metal so it's not obvious, it might work......but......?? :wink:

[timbertoes]

Yes, sir, did that first, used almost the whole can of brake cleaner stuff

not too much stuff came out. results on the firing pin protrusioon are the same however.


now I realize that :
too deep a strike can pierce the primer , with deadly results.
and can also break the pin.

SO....I dont expect anyone to just jump and say "do it"   I will in the end, use my own judgement. but if anyone has this type of nef gunsmthing experience, then thats cool.

if I go ahead with this plan, I will take off no more than .01, not .02, I bet the design must allow some rebound ? (edited incorrect info in paragraph - i'm no 'smithy)

considering most of the ammo did fire, an additional .005 to .01 inch might well be all thats really required.  I jam 100% sure a pierced primer is very bad news indeed  :eek:

What I dont have is a way to measure the striked-depth of the various fired primers in different fired cases/calibers  I have laying around, knowing that would be comforting at least.

I could visualy judge the results by firing  a case with primer only, no powder or bullets....

[timbertoes]

also blew out the receiver with compressed air, approx 100 psi

[quickdtoo]

Actually, I've had perforated primers on my .357 max shooting DW ammo, the worst it did was make the action near impossible to open and stained the area around the firing pin, just 2 of 4 rounds. No permanent damage. :grin:

[v8r]

Try cleaning it and see if that works.If it dosen't work send it back in.When you send it back ask them to please adjust the trigger.They did mine in about a months time.Thats shipping it to them and getting it back.

[timbertoes]

Well, I just learned 2 or 3 new things......

I put the barrel and forearm back on.

With a fired case in the gun, I learned that the hammer does NOT hit the frame until you let go of the trigger.   so .......forget all that crap I typed before       thank you, roseanna danna......

It does seems that the hammer does not snap with as much authority as the 45-70 rifle, with a fired case in the gun(s)

and OM MY GAWD!!! I can SEE a GAP between the barrel and the receiver when I hold it up to the light.    CRAPOLA.  I can just almost get a piece of paper started in the gap.

Now I wish I had not floated/sanded the inlet of the forearm.....the gun store has a 30 day return policy......

OH WELL!!!  
guess whose name will be added to H&R repair database...
     
gotta take it in stride...i suppose   :-)


so what extra barrel should I get  :-D  :-D  :-D
see, there is a silver lining....

but this barrel is not marked SB-2, it just says Handi-rifle 25-06. wonder what that means.
I would like any of the following

22 hornet
243 ....hmmm ...bull barrel yea..
7-08  semi redundant......
or a hot little 204 !!

 :-D  :-D  :-D

[quickdtoo]

FWIW, all my handis/ultra will put the pinch on a .002" feeler gauge when the action is closed on it against the breech face, tight enough that it can't be pulled out. My .001" gauge went south a long time ago, or I'd try it, too. :cry:

[timbertoes]

I can get a dirty old  .003 strip gauge started on the right side, about 2 O'clock, but not on the left.

I can not see any light /gap on the 45-70.   hmmm.

I am not a very patient person ...at all.....I hate to be "without", but I guess I should grow up and send it in, and wait....

at least call them on monday. !!   :roll:

I sure have enjoyed discussing this with you all, thank you very much!!!

[timbertoes]

hmm, well I just put the barrel on the 45-70 receiver. it seemed to fit well, with the same .003 feeler guage able to go in - on one side, not the other "she must be outta square , captain!"


and....

the primer strike is virtually identical looking in depth, though the shape is a little different.


hmmmmmm.  

[ScatterGunner]

timbertoes -

di dah dit, di dah dit.

de AB2JL, KN

the proper term for stuff left by the factory in your gun is "Gunk" and you must scrub the Gunk out with brake cleaner and a brass brush.

scrub, scrub scrub.

remember that brake cleaner dissolves everything but metal and unpaid bills so be sure to remove the stock and forearm before you get started.


i had the same problem with a 17 hmr sportster, even after several judicious cleanings. i sent the gun back to the factory and they fixed the problem. it happens.

by the way - 7.051 cw, 7.141 cw, and 1.858 late night radio for your listening pleasure !

sg

[Fred M]

timbertoes.
Cleaning the gunk out of course is the first thing you do, and you have done that.
There are several items that can cause insufficient primer penetration.
One obvious one one is a short firing pin, but since they are all the same in the Handi's, I would leave that to the last. The others are, too much head space or primers seated too deep. You mentioned a gap when action is closed(pour fit or loose latch or weak latch spring)

The transfer bar must be be fully to the top for the hammer to drive the firing pin into the primer. You will notice when you hold the hammer  when it is cocked and pull the trigger easing the hammer down, it will take only a few thou for the the transfer bar to retract when you let the trigger go after you pulled it.

This is a most critical operation, the triger has to go far enough back so the tranfer bar remains UP during the hammer fall. Otherwise you get only a partial transfer to the firing pin. Rather than a complete transfer you get only the inertial force of the firing pin, and this rifle has not got an inertia firing pin, resulting in a low indent or non at all.

There are two items that may prevent the trigger going back far enough.
The trigger return coil spring is to long or the  this spring is too stiff.
Remedy is to lighten this spring. But note you must have a full return.

Check the trigger recess for burrs that may keep the trigger from going back as far as it should. Try the trigger without the spring to asure unrestricted movement.

When you lighten the trigger return spring you will also lighten the trigger pull a few ounces.

The notch in the hammer should be the same dimension as the the transfer bar. Otherwise the hammer stop will prevent the transfer bar to Transfer the hammer blow to the firing pin.

Check firing pin penetration  with full sized primed cases. Do this by holding the trigger back and let the hammer slip from under your thumb.

2. Cock the hammer and push against the transfer bar with the back of a pencil or wood dowel and measure how much the firing pin sticks out of the standing breech. From this you should be able to deduct where the trouble is. This dimension should be the same as holding the trigger back after pullling the trigger with the hammer resting on the tranfer bar.

[safetysheriff]

I'd say send that rifle back and let them make good on all of its problems....which is what it sounds like!   ......all of its problems.    I think you're going to be given a new frame and the barrel will be returned to you.    We'll see.  

Just my opinion,

SS'

EDIT: I'm off by a mile, since the .45-70 frame gives the same gap on the side of the barrel -- .003"!    I need to pay closer attention!    My mistake.

[timbertoes]

to FredM and everyone, thank you for your help. you are what makes greybeards my first choice for critical info.


Since gun repairs and tuning are beyond my capabilites, I decided to take this NEF back.  The Gun store did so, and I chose a Ruger 77, in 25-06
Obviuosly more money, but I pay more for NEF than some anyway, around here they are $235 plus 8% tax.


with some reloads the Ruger gave me a 4 shot ragged hole at 100 yards with no cooling in between. thats fantastic no matter what brand gun!

Well that is certainly good news, and I am happy, but also dissapointed that the NEF did not work out.

I wont rule out NEF in the future, but I will make sure I search before the buy. I usually do, but this time I did the searchs after, where I found all of FredM's info and Lik2Hunts info.

thanks again, I hope I can help you guys out sometime.