Entrapment ! Hey Mickey.

[S.S.]

I Completely agree with you on having GrayBeard Lock
one of the posts in this forum because of a possible under-age
person. I have thought about the law on a few other posts I have read also. I get this mental picture of somebody like Michael Moore
sitting at his computer gathering lies for his next movie.
I think that this is one instance where it pays to be a bit on the paranoid side.

[Robert357]

I guess one of the questions that we might want to discuss on this thread is what are the "red flags" that should set us off in the real world?

With terrorist groups claiming they want to do damage in the US and various other Countries this summer, there could be one set of red flags.  I am sure none of use would supply methods of making pipebombs or other things and would actively tell the person to stop what they were doing.

Likewise somethings are so illegal, you just have to say no, you can't do that.  For example is someone asked how to modify a semi-auto to fire full auto and said they didn't want to get a Class 3 transfer, I think someone should step in and say no, you can't do that.

I know at the Gun Collectors Association I belong to they are very very paranoid about straw-man purchases and constantly advising the members to be very very careful in this regards at Gunshows.  The Collectors Assocition also cautions member to only sell to other members as a way of making sure you don't get caught up in some kind of sting operation.  A show a couple years ago, there was a different gun club that had a reporter attend a gunshow and do a blistering story about all the kinds of machine guns and other stuff he could have bought.  It took lots of letters to the editor by folks to explain to the public that the reporter was not looking at real machine guns, and that actually some where incapable of firing (DWAT's).  In the end that gun show group still had a bad reputation.

In between there is a lot of grey area and I like this forum and dont want anything bad to happen to it.

[Mikey]

Thanks fellas, I appreciate your support.  Some of these posters have been with us for a while and are just plain good folks but may ask a question that while spoken to themselves sounds perfectly logical and reasonable but just doesn't appear that way in black and white print.

And yes, we should have red flags up all over the place with the concerns about terrorist activity before the election but I think it would be a fairly blockheaded gov't snoop who would try to lock us into saying something totally misleading on these forums, although that hardly means they wouldn't try.  

Guess this is more like crossing the streets these days - just have to look both ways and keep your eyes and ears open and make certain the you know when it's safe and when it isn't.  Mikey.

[Robert357]

I just got through reading the post about the person who wants to get advice as to if he should transfer a gun to a convicted felon.

What is going on?

Has this website been invaided by some folks trying to punch people's hot buttons and distrubt the rest of the website?  

Is there something in the water or an alignment of the planets that is making folks ask outrageous questions?

If this were the "Handgun Hunting" segment of the website, I wouldn't be surprised to find a PETA or Animal Rights website with a message devoted to hasseling the blood-thirsty meat eaters over at Gray Beard.

I can't see the Bush Administration trying to do somekind of BAFT sting but I could see a City of Chicago, New York City department of political correctness, or even a Democratic Congressional staff person trying to get some violation of interstate laws.

This all can't be coincicence.

P.S.  Maybe several of the folks who enjoy this website should either adopt sarcasm or a "counter-sting" approach to these posts.  

I re-read the post of two moderators to the guy asking about selling the firearm to a felon.  The moderators (PaulS & castaway) suggested having the original poster contact BAFT to see what the what advice they would have for a C&R License holder who is thinking about selling a C&R logged rifle to a felon.  He didn't use those exact words, but I think I got the drift.

I would bet that BAFT would be so interested in this that they would invite him to come done to their office or that they might even drop by his house to talk to him.

Maybe subtle sarcasm is the way to allow for a Darwinian cleansing of the gene pool so that folks who ask questions about doing illegal things gain face time with the criminal justice system.

Mikey, what is the recommendation of the website?

[pete50]

sarcasm applied

[hardertr]

With terrorist groups claiming they want to do damage in the US and various other Countries this summer, there could be one set of red flags.  I am sure none of use would supply methods of making pipebombs or other things and would actively tell the person to stop what they were doing.

I am working on my BA in Homeland Security - Law Enforcement Intelligence and am currently working on a "project". My goal is to show how easy it really is for the "average teenager" to create an incident of mass destruction worthy of DHS (Dept. of Homeland Sec) attention.

Sites like this one are not worth a criminal's time.  If they REALLY are dedicated to a cause, they can access sites that do everything except build the bomb for you.  And NO, you are not "monitored by the government" if you go to them.  THAT would be an invasion of privacy and an attack on our "FREEDOM".  :roll:

"Freedom" can be a dangerous thing.  I can already hear the slogan now...."Freedom doesn't kill people, people kill people."

It will be interesting to see how some people will try to justify making sites like that illegal, yet absolutely REFUSE to support a screening process for gun purchases.

[rockbilly]

hardertr, you are assuming too much if you believe for one minute that the government can't/won't monitor this site.  It is not an invasion of privacy to monitor a public fourm.  As I understand, anyone can log on and read/post on this fourm.

If ya is a studying HLS, maybe ya needs to spend a few more hours a researching this point..............

[hardertr]

OK rockbilly.... you "irritated" me to the point I had to dig a LOT deeper.  Here's what I found if you're interested.  If not, you DID help me by making me do some research:

The government doesn't have the time or resources to track these smaller sites, instead, it relies on citizen "cyber-spies" to do some of the snooping for them.  These civilians are unrestricted by laws of entrapment.  When they come across something they think might be of interest to the government, they forward it to appropriate military or law enforcement authorities.  Then the government can follow up on "probable cause."  Apparently, there are A LOT of these guys snooping through sites and chats.  7-Seas Global Intelligence is one group that turned up several times. They go so far as to entice people to say things that will give the government some real meat to pursue.  Pretty nasty business, but they have helped put several people behind bars.

Since many of these people have their own agendas, I guess you are correct in saying this site is just as likely to be monitored as any other.  I am sure some of these guys are probably anti-gun fanatics, and would LOVE to turn someone in who was willing to sell a gun to a known felon.

There was also a law passed in '97 that allows the government to "monitor" sites, but they can only do so with a court order (or they violate the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986).  The FBI can search the web using Carnivore (the system that looks for key words and phrases), but it can only pursue tips with the court's permission.


Bottom line....THANK YOU!  You forced me to educate myself.  :oops:

[Flash]

If someone or some agency Was "Beating the Bushes" to see what way the gun owning mentality was canted, no one would ever know it. The prisons are full of people who thought no one was watching or listening. To think that the internet wouldn't be used for information gathering purposes, paralells the fear of falling off the flat edge of the earth. The best motto is to know the law and not break it!!!

[rockbilly]

hardertr, I agree, the government most likely does not pay an individual to monitor all the gun sites out there, but many of the individuals who are regulars on this site are current or former LEOs, I won't say they are monitoring your post, but I'm sure if they detect something that may be on the "shady" side, they would (may) notify the proper agency to deal with the issue.

You have to be aware of the fact that many FBI, ATF employees (and other LEOs) are gun nuts like many of us on this site.  In their off time they could detect questionable post and then pursue them when back to duty.

Bottom line, just don't do or say anything that may get your crack in a jam and ya won't have any problem.  Personally, I have no problem with law enforcement going after the criminal elements that may wander on to this or any other site and break the law.  Keeping them in line only serves to ensure the rights of lawabiding owners to maintain their firearms.

[S.S.]

The Government can and does monitor internet traffic!
Not only internet, but fax and cell phone traffic as well.
It is really quite simple to do. I am now in the
Information Technology field and it would probably
scare most folks to death how easy it is to spy on them
with the proper software. I have never really added up
how many computers we have in our network but we have
23 sites with between 120 and 400 systems at each site.
We can easily monitor everything that passes through those
computers. We do not have a person sitting at the security server
console 24/7 (although we could) but it is automated to filter/search all traffic that passes through.It is set to search key words and or file types
and If something undesirable is found, an alert
report e-mail is sent to our network manager. The internet is basicly
a giant network and all through it are these security systems.
Believe me, Big Brother is always watching. And listening.

[earschplitinloudenboomer]

...then Dale Gribble is not paranoid!!!!!!!!!!

[hardertr]

The Government can and does monitor internet traffic!
Not only internet, but fax and cell phone traffic as well.
It is really quite simple to do.

THAT is my job...only in a different language.  We have the capability to do it, and theoretically, it is quite efficient.  The problems arise when you have to rely on that PERSON to dig through all of the crap the computer spits out at you and labels "vitally important to the welfare of your kids, your kid's kids...".  Then you read it only to find out it is some grandmother talking about something she saw on the news.  Once you realize a true "find" is like finding a needle in a haystack, you start to assume EVERYTHING you find is going to fall into that "crap" pile.

My thought....if a country hires people that probably wouldn't even make decent Wal-mart greeters to work something as sensitive as airport security, chances are their resources to monitor even 5% of the civilian faxes/phones/email  is piss-poor at best.