Accuracy when proper sights are used for Long Range

[Cottonwood]

Another posting for what else... the Wesson & Harrington 1871 Buffalo Classic 45-70 or 45-xxx.  Now most have left their Buffalo Classic's in 45-70 but others have reamed up clear up to 45-120, or even after having a barrel made re-barreled to the BIG 50-90. Well many have posted questions about what sights to use etc.  I just wanted to post this pic of what at friend of mine did with his Shiloh Sharps in 45-110... whats that you say... he used a Shiloh Sharps, and not a Buffalo Classic Rifle.  Heck you could use this load with a reamed up Buffalo Classic as well, or leave it as a 45-70 and still do this.

You can use the Buffalo Classic to obtain this same accuracy in 45-70 IF and only IF you use proper sights AND the right kind of cast bullet weight in the Buffalo Classic.  Come on now, don't you just hear those Long Range Targets calling your name?  

Now after you properly sight your Buffalo Classic up with these sights, how do you make them work you ask... well glad you asked so here is a link that will help you learn how to use Vernier Soule Sights Sight Settings for Long Range BPCR.  Now what if you don't want a Vernier Soule Sight and would like to scope up with a period correct telescopic sight.  I got but two companies that I would recomend for this task and usually because of price (you could by several Buffalo Classic's for the price of one of these) but what if you did want to use a period correct telescopic sight.  RHO and MVA make the telescopic sights that WILL get you accuracy out to a 1,000 yards if you want it, BUT you got to want it.

Handirifle has posted pics of his or what was his Buffalo Classic when sighted up with a Lee Shaver Soule sight.  I or Handirifle can post those pics of that Buffalo Classic again for those that missed it the first time around.  But I wanted to post this pic here so you can see what proper loading with consistant compression of black powder loads can gain you at the range.

300 yard 5 shot group, Load was 105 grs. Goex 1F, BA cases, Rem 9 1/2 primer and 553 gr. PJ Creedmoor bullet. Wad was 0.060" LDPE. Bullet off lands 0.020"


I know some could care less about this, and that is fine, just keep on using that cheapo Williams peep sight over the chamber breech then.  H&R1871 provided this sight so you have something to work with, but it falls way short for shooting long range.

[GrampaMike]

Montanan

Will the Target 38-55 work long range target work?

Which would be better; the Buffalo Classic or the Target 38-55?

Would the Davide Pedersoli Rear Soule Sights sets work on these rifles?

Thanks, Mike.

[Cottonwood]

Montanan

Will the Target 38-55 work long range target work?

It depends what you mean by long range

Which would be better; the Buffalo Classic or the Target 38-55?

I personally would stick with the 45-70 because you need a heavier bullet at long ranges over 500 yards.

Would the Davide Pedersoli Rear Soule Sights sets work on these rifles?  Thanks, Mike.

The Davide Pedersoli such as the one that is available thru Davide Pedersoli Soule Sights  
Soule tang rear sight systems combine highly adjustable elevation and windage controls for amazing long-range shooting precision. One full turn of the windage knob gives a full 2-1/2 MOA adjustment in 1/2-minute clicks. Combine the rear Soule Mid-Range peep with a Spirit level globe-style front sight to reduce cant.

The front globe sight that come with this set has windage adjustment as well and this would be a good deal.  I have a very simalar rear Soule Sight on my Sharps from Lee Shaver.  I want the front globe sight for my front end because of the windage.

You can mount this Soule sight to the wood, but in time, I think you would want a tang inlet to have it mounted on.  Just remember when mounting these to have your eye cup to its lowest setting to just rise even with across the barrel so you are looking at the front globe sight in the apature.

Have a great day  

[Trapper-Jack]

But I wanted to post this pic here so you can see what proper loading with consistant compression of black powder loads can gain you at the range.

That photo is very impressive.  I know that this deals more with loading black powder cartridges than the handi's, but since it was started here, I'll ask here.  I am relitively new to loading with black powder cartridges, about a year and a half.  I have read about everything I can get my hands on for load developement, and at times the more I learn, the more I have questions about.  In your above statement about consistant compression being used, what is more important in your opinion, compression or the amount of powder?  It seems that there are about as many opinions as there are people.  I've been told that it takes about 5 grains of powder to make an appreciable amount of differance with black powder, but I see where alot of the top shooters weigh their powder, then compress to the same level.  This would be fine if all the cases had the same volume, the amount of powder and compression would be the same.  However in the real world there are some variations in the cases, even when taken from the same lot, where the same weight amount of powder would result in different powder column heights and therefor different amounts of compression.  On the other hand the same "settled" column height of powder before compression to maintain the same rate of compression will sometimes yield a differance of two or three grains of powder in my experiments.  Any comments?  I'm interested in your opinion.

[Cottonwood]

But I wanted to post this pic here so you can see what proper loading with consistant compression of black powder loads can gain you at the range.

That photo is very impressive.  In your above statement about consistant compression being used, what is more important in your opinion, compression or the amount of powder?

 

The same compression has to be used REGARDLESS so that your bullet will seat to the same OAL each and every time.  In this game Consistancy is the key to loading for BPC.  So ALL things being the same, each and every time it would all be consistant.

It seems that there are about as many opinions as there are people.  I've been told that it takes about 5 grains of powder to make an appreciable amount of differance with black powder, but I see where alot of the top shooters weigh their powder, then compress to the same level.

A good digital scale will prevent you from having a 5 grain increase or decrease in your volume weight.  This is why the top BPCR shooter weigh their powder loads even if a Black Powder Powder Hopper like a Lyman 55 BP Powder Measure or Hornady Black Powder Measure is used to drop the powder charge.  I personally use a Lyman 55 powder measure because there is no problem with Static Electricity from plastic hoppers.

This would be fine if all the cases had the same volume, the amount of powder and compression would be the same.  However in the real world there are some variations in the cases, even when taken from the same lot, where the same weight amount of powder would result in different powder column heights and therefor different amounts of compression.  On the other hand the same "settled" column height of powder before compression to maintain the same rate of compression will sometimes yield a differance of two or three grains of powder in my experiments.  Any comments?  I'm interested in your opinion.

This is also why, the top BPCR shooters will even weigh their empty cartridge cases and seperate by weight.  In all likelyhood the little variance to me does not make that much of a differance for what I do.  I compress my BP loads with a Powder Compression Plug that you thread into your expander die.  There is NEVER a differant amount of compression used for the same bullets used unless you change the bullet weight and you have a differance in the driving bands that need to be seated.  All of your BPC bullets will have a top driving band, and how much that needs to be exposed such as .010" or .055" depends on the throating of each individual rifle... not all chambers are the same.  So you need to know your chamber and its throating.  I have seen some 45-70 barrels where the owner had it throated out to .270" there by giving the case more powder volume where they can actually slowly trickle a full 70 to even 75 gr grains of powder into the case and then only compressing the powder charge .410" and have thereby created a 45-90 load.

I only use Starline Brass so I have not noticed an inconsistancy in regards to total case OAL and then after compressing my powder charge, have not seen a diviation of my total OAL with a seated bullet that on each cartridge has a total OAL of 3.295"  My bullet that I am using is a 550-gr PJ Creedmoor that is 1.446" in total length.  I have to seat this bullet .670" my exposed driving band is .050" to meet the lands of the barrel.

Now using a paper patch bullet, powder volume weight, compression and seating are totally a differant matter all together.

I can tell you right now that the Buffalo Classic is .010" with its throating or the 3 that I owned were anyway.

I hope this gives you some information that you can use and helps you along in this wonderful sport of BPCR.  I don't shoot any BPCR or NRA Silly-Wet Matches and have gained much insight and knowledge for my own shooting skills, and load development.  I just flat our enjoy shooting Black Powder Cartridge Rifle, but am not into the matches, but one a year if I can make it, and that is the Quigley Match 1999 and 2000 pictures that is held every year in Forsyth Mt on Fathers Day Week-End.  Quigley Pictures 2002 and then Quigley Pictures 2002

If all you got is a Handi-Rifle in 22" barrel that is .37 cal or above shooting smokeless or black powder come on out and have fun.  

[GrampaMike]

Thanks Montanan.

I think I need to attend a BPCR Match to learn alot of what I don't know.

Need to also have tang inletted as you suggested.

Thanks again, Mike.

[Woodbutcher]

Dear Montanan:
 Been lookin at your posts and readin your thoughts about sights and loading on the Buff! First of all, thanks, I really needed that. Also, many thanks to the rest of you who added their contribution. Boy, is this stuff timely! I held back from responding sooner so that I could think about what I wanted to say.
 First, Good Lord willing, I'll be getting a Target Model 38/55 next couple of weeks, money is down and it's on layaway.
  I had the choice of the Buff 45/70 or Target 38/55, had both of them in my hand for a direct comparison. Oh my! I chose the latter because I already have a Handy in 45/70. I have to laugh at the thought of some of you fellas faced with making such a choice! Talk about agony and ecstacy! Please do advise, however.
   I will report to you that the difference in weight is only mildly apparent. I've always been convinced that a pistol grip type stock was superior, or at least very much my preference, but now after handling those straight grips, it's shocking how quickly I changed my mind. Both rifles felt very, very nice to handle! Appearence was everything I could want.
 Second, the sights as supplied, I'm sure, would work well enough, at least to start. But a stepladder type rear sight would make me happier, enough so for me to pay the price. (Why not? The link you posted showed that they even come in a nifty wooden box.) It would be closer to the eye and better for target work,... I believe..., than the barrel mounted sights, such as the Trapdoor type, that you described last week. Do correct me please, since I've no real experience with either sighting system. Your most recent post today, (accuracy, proper sights ect.) and discussions, really hit home!
  I remember Handirifles post and the pictures, looked like a great setup! Doesn't this installation method solve the problem of a "tang sight" for these rifles decisively? Is there some innacuracy, or weakness, or problem in mounting the rear sight in the wood wrist.
 Let's see now, route out a place on top of the wrist, "glue" in a piece of metal, screw the sight base to it. Better if the gunsmith does it. Over simplified to be sure, but am I missing anything?
 A mid range with windage and a spirit level front sure sounds fine. Now  to select which make and model. Indeed, why wouldn't I follow Handirifles lead?
 Third, regarding a telescope sight, you stated the matter with very satisfying clarity. I don't want it bad enough to spend that much...yet.  
 Forth, I'm fresh to reloading. I do have a Lee Loader for the 45/70, and plan to start casting. Have I gotten an incorrect idea from my reading on different internet sites that reloading the 38/55 can be a bit, shall we say sensitive, sometimes? A bit more so than the 45/70? This won't stop me, just curious.  
 Last, whew! The idea is loading BP and lead, cast or PP, and offhand shooting up to 220 yards, which is what would make me happy right now. And who knows, maybe with more experience, steel at up to, what, 500 meters? ( why is it called silly wets? too hard to spell otherwise?) Paul Matthews does say that that the 38/55 is on the light side for steel, but that it is sometimes used succesfully for that purpose. However, paper shooting and the enjoyment of gaining experience is the most immediate idea right now.
 There are many who read and enjoy these posts, and the info and ideas shared are so very valuable, and encouraging that again, may I say thanks!                                                      Woodbutcher

[Trapper-Jack]

Montanan
Thanks for your insite and opinions.  You have given me a lot to think about and try.  Maybe some day I'll get this all figered out.

[handirifle]

Woodbutcher
Let me chime in regarding the "wrist tang".  Mine seemed very solid and wasn't goint to move but there are built in areas that "could" cause accuracy problems.

First, since these rifles do not have the barrel screwed sloidly to the receiver, the barrel has to move everytime it opens to chamber/eject a shell.  There is a "potential" for sight misalignment.  This is why many choose to mount a ladder sight on the barrel.

Second, is if the buttstock happens to loosen and turn ever so slightly from that nice light recoil the 45-70 puts out.

Neither of these were happening to me but the potential is there.

Don't know if you're familiar with the Sharps rifles or not, but they use the tang sight because the tang is part of the receiver, that the barrel is screwed into.  Not so on the Handi/BC.

Some have talked about have the tang "brazed" onto the rear of the receiver, but I never liked that idea myself.

[Deadeye47]

:shock: WoW! 5 shot group at 300 yards with open sights!!! 300 yards is a long way out there and I can't get um that close together with a 3-9 scope mounted on my rifle!! Corse I'm not lobing a bowling ball with 105 grains of 1F behind it down there either......Incredible!!!!  

[Cottonwood]

In your magazine racks now... Rifle Magazine Jan 2005 issue.  Mike Venturino has another great artical on accuracy and BPCR.  The 3 rifles that he uses are C. Sharps 44-90, C. Sharps 45-70 and Shiloh Sharps 45-70

In the artical you will see why he shot the pants off of his friends 300 Weatherby Mag at 200 yards using a 125 yr old 45-70 rifle with black powder loads.

Now getting back to our discussion, I just had to throw that in there so you will go out and get the magazine.

Deadeye47, I have seen Steve Garb who was on national TV with his 45-110 Sharps do this at 1200 yards.  He was being filmed for the show, and well in front of millions I suppose who watch it as well.  Your black powder cartridge loads do not have to be super charged so that they are going 1800 FPS or faster to reach out and touch something.  Heck a 45-70 BPC can and did reach 2 miles during the Sandy Hook test of 1879 and you can read just how much penitration it had at the other end.  The 500-gr bullet mentioned in the artical would have been the 500-gr 1881 Govt design as it was later called becuase of the test.

Handirifle brings up good points about two factors that could cause the tang mount Soule sight to become questionable on the Buffalo Classic.  Well the ejection problem can be fixed to make them extract instead of poping out when ejected.  Ejector Modification for the Tip Up Rifle is a real easy way to fix this.  The other potentual problem of wear on the hinge is another, but just how long this wear would take is anyones guess.  But if you had wear from tipping or opening the breech break the barrel as we have to for reloading and shooting each round fired, can you be assured of a 100% return to zero each and every time.... only time will tell.  Another question raised is the brazed tang option... this would make it more in line with the design of the 1884 Wurfflein Breech Loading Rifle pictured here.

But if the 1884 Wurfflein had no problems with this, I don't know if the Buffalo Classic will either.

Now getting onto what black powders (not substitute powders like Pyrodex) are used or do I want to use?  This is a good viable question here since now we have Elephant, Goex, Kick, Swiss and Schuetzen powders.  When I can't get my hands on Goex FFg I use Elephant, just my call.  Those in BPCR are using Swiss but it is more costly to use.  But getting back to what I use, Goex FFg and usually purchase 4 pounds from the same lot number.  This way the fines are consistant with each can or pound that I get, because it changes from lot to lot number.

As I have stressed consistancy is your key word, and even when I use my drop tube while pouring the powder down the tube, I trickel it in ever so slowly so I have a uniform compaction in the shell casing.  Some ask, "Well is this really necessary?" I believe it is, simply because of the consistancy of each load developed.  Do the experiment and you will see for yourself.

Take a 45-70 case and just fill it to the top with BP, then slowly trickel that powder down the drop tube so that the powder settles into another case and you will see the differance.  You might ask yourself then, "How does it do that?" well each grain of powder is finding its place like jigsaw puzzle peices fitting together.  When a muzzleloader is pouring his charge of BP down the barrel it usually has some 24" to 32" to fall and settle into place, and this is why the drop tube method came about as it is my understanding.

Guy's you won't find names like Kenny Wasserburger National Champion BPCR shooter, or Steve Garb also National Champion BPCR shooter and so on here defending the Buffalo Classic or even advocating its use, because they flat out will not touch a H&R 1871 product, they own C. Sharps, Shiloh Sharps and Ballards and the like and do not consider the Wesson & Harrington 1871 Buffalo Classic 45-70 a BPCR gun...... but it is.  Its just like a BMW or Jag owner looking down their noses at a Chevy, Dodge or Ford 4x4 owner.

Well the Wesson & Harrington 1871 Buffalo Classic 45-70 has merit and I feel it deserves very good credit becuase it does perform and the only limit one puts on it, is his own.

Sight them up and shoot them to your standard, but just don't let your standard, stand in the way of you making your Buffalo Classic shoot its best.  Many have been amazed at the 500 yard and farther long range match where the Buffalo Classic was used, that its shooter walked away with a win.  Simply because he/she had it sighted up, and their loads were consistant.

BPCR loading is a learning curve, don't rush your loading development, but the 45-70 cartridge is the easiest to learn by.  You can go to my website at http://The_Montanan.tripod.com  I have been making some changes and additions to information for each of you, as well as anyone who stroles in.  I hope it helps.

I hope to someday soon to have a linked page dedicated to just Wesson & Harrington 1871 Buffalo Classic rifles in differant configurations and calibers.  I already know of one guy who had a barrel made in 40-65 and 50-70 and like Shiloh Sharps has, a Trophy Room dedicated to Buffalo Classic hunters ONLY.  That is game taken with just.. you guessed it the Wesson & Harrington 1871 Buffalo Classic or Target Model.

 

[Cottonwood]

Range report for my 45-90 loads with 550-gr PJ Creedmoor bullet

As I spoke above about consistant compression of BP as I use FFg Goex.  I only fired 3 shots at 100 yards as I discribed the information above.  As I got up to the upper pasture a strong wind kicked up that was bending the tree tops.. felt like 15 to 20 mph from the side.  I couldn't use my cross sticks to rest my Sharps on because of the snow and ice.

Results from off hand shooting.. 3 shots fired struck steel repainted plate center 1/4" group.

I thought I would share this with you.

[Badnews Bob]

Hey GrampaMike I do believe the .38-55 was designed to be a 600yrd (short range) target rifle, worked out to be a pretty  good lever gun cartridge also, Personal favorite of Crazy Horse. Can't be to bad I know I like mine.

[handirifle]

While you're talking 45-70 thought I'd mention this.
I'll post all the details in the H&R classifieds but wanted to let ye'all know here too.

45-70 stuff for trade for most anything in 375 Win.  see H&R classifieds for details.