45-70 shot shells?

[jhalcott]

I have a 45/70 barrel that gets little use. I just got back from a deer hunt in Maine and missed several chances at Partridge birds.I DID GET THE DEER THOUGH! Any way I was thinking about loading the 45/70 with a shot charge for the bird and squirrel shooting opportunities I get. They used to call these loads "Forager" loads. Does any one have any info on them.? Do I need an over powder wad.and what kind? Any info would be very appreciated.

[willysjeep134]

I don't know, but I suspect a shot load might not perform that well. Rifling tends to spin the pattern quite a bit wider than a cylinder bored smooth barrel would. If you were going to go with a shot load, you could get some of those .45 Speer shot capsules. You could probably adapt some of the data they provide to make them work with the 45-70. Plus, with a normal shot load,without the capsule, you would probably get some massive barrel leading. Speer intends these capsules to work in 45 handguns. You fill them with shot, and seat them like a bullet. I guess the capsule shatters when it hits the rifling, but still stays between the shot and bore, keeping the bore clean.

A better option might be a gallery type load using an appropriately sized round ball. If you play with the powder charge sometimes you can get a light roundball to strike point-of-aim at a short distance, and not have to ajust your sights. If you see a bird on the ground at 12 yards you could pop it in the head with a roundball.

[Duffy]

A friend and I are trying to work out something of a shot shell for his BFR when it shows up.  Been thinking of using a 45 cal sabot for BP and just inserting a teflon or nylon wrap to extend the cup. Top it off with a over shot card and crimp over the card. Just in the planning stages at this time though.

[Camp Cook]

I have been reading about quiet or squib 45-70 loads over the last couple of years and finally gave it a try this last weekend with my 22" barreled T/C Contender carbine.
I am loading 450gr 4 lube groove cast bullets with Tite Group powder starting with 8grs held in place with styrofoam which gave a velocity of 860fps average, but was very loud(like a 410 shotgun load).
I have now worked down to 3grs of Tite Group (always hold the powder in place with styrofoam or some other filler) for a velocity of 403fps average. The shots where as loud as a 22lr but was more of a soft boom rather than the loud crack of the 22lr.  
All of the shots where with iron sights which grouped in to less than 2" @ 25 yards but where about 18" high.
The idea behind this is to keep reducing the load until a bullet gets stuck in the barrel then you remove the cast bullet (never us jacketed bullets)and increase your powder charge back up .2grs to .5grs or until the bullet just exits the barrel. The sound of the hammer hitting should be louder than the bullet firing.
My plan is to use these loads when I come across small game while I'm hunting.
Cam

[Mikey]

jhalcot:  why don't you try .410 level charges, with shot, in your 45-70 cases.  You can chamber a .410 shell in a 444, you should be able to chamber one in the 45-70 although it will probably be a bit looser in the chamber than in the 444.  

I do not think it a safe practice to try and fire a .410 from a 45-70 or even a 444 but the pressures are low enough not to cause damage to the firearm.  You may split a 410 case but you could prolly do it.  

I like the idea of a shot shell for a lever action and I might try loading up some 410 power loads in some 444 cases to see how they would do.  I am hoping that the shot cup would take to the rifling and not effect the shot pattern.  Hmmmm, this could be a good winter time activity.  Great way to go small gaming with a big game rifle.  Hmmmm, almost as good as artillery golf (lol).  Mikey,

[Brian T]

I have gotten good short range accuracy with a .460 round ball and light  charge of 5744

[jhalcott]

I t surprises me the number of replies I've gotten on this.I must not be the only guy that wants to try it!  Thanks and keep 'em coming

[jhalcott]

I was on another site that sells brass and bullets,they also have various size wads and cards. I looked at a 45/110 shell and those wads/cards.An old reloader I knew would cut down 30/06brass to the length of a LOADED 45 acp round.He'd load these cases with powder,an over powder wad,then a scoop of ? shot.Over all of this he'd insert an overshot card,then crimp the card in place.He claimed "reasonable" effectiveness at 7 yards on squirrels and rats,etc.  As I recall, the old "forager " rounds were made on this principle.Man those 45/110 & 45/120 cases are pricey,$2.00 a pop!

[Duffy]

A 410 wad should work quite well in the 444. They are the ones I use in my 45 ACP shot shells. Patterns are much better than the shot capsules too.  At 25' they are usually around 17" if memory serves me right, but CRS could mess that up too.    I know they make mush out of rattlers when loaded with #12 shot.

[stuffit]

Likely most of you havn't been around long enough to remember when shotgun shells were paper and had no plastic shot cups.  Winchester AA was first, as best I recall, with polyethelene shot sleeves that you could also obtain for use in reloading. The shot cup/wads were not far behind.  With a .45-70 shot load I'd think something like this would be the way to go.   The .410 shot cups might serve and then again they might not be of large enough diameter to obturate properly.  I'm not sure just how much shot the .45 shot cups made for pistols would hold, but maybe not optimal.  I'd think that some sort of protection for your barrel would be essential if you didn't want lead to accumulate in the rifling.   I'd speculate that some sort of polyethelene sheet/sleeve might still be around.  These,  cut to just over one wraparound length, over a proper wad, behind a 3" .410 shot charge, say 7 1/2 shot, over a powder charge listed for that shell, might be a good place to start.  I'd think a .45 gas check would serve well as an over the shot wad, and could be held in place by a strong crimp.  Perhaps someone had already tried it. Likely so,  but those are my thoughts on it for now.
 
stuffit

[Duffy]

Stuffit,
That's exactly what I had mentioned earlier. That is how I load my turkey loads for my 10 ga. Only thing different instead of using a nitro card I use a obturating plastic wad base which seals better. Next come the fiber wads, a nylon shot wrap, then the shot & buffer. As a matter of fact, Winchester still loads it 10ga turkey loads that way. The problem is 45-70 cases are larger at the bottom than at the mouth and cutting a nitro card to fit is gonna be a bit of a challenge. But I like challenges!  The .410 wads won't seal good enough in the 45-70 and will blow out the sides but should work in the 444 quite well as the case is smaller and straighter.
All I need is a little time.....

[Connecticut Yankee]

There are shotgun inserts that let you shoot 20ga in a 12ga or 28ga in a 20. Skeeters ias one brand, Orvis sells them too, and I yhink even Cabellas lists them.  These are chamber inserts, not barrel liners. The 28 in a 20 is supposed to give a very nice pattern, sort of a poor mans over-bore.  The shot cups expand to seal the bore properly if you only go down one standard gage.
     At any rate, this would lead me to believe that the .410 shot cups might work well enough in the 45-70.  It would keep the barrel from leading terribly, though I'd expect some plastic to strip in the rifling. Possibly a couple of regular light 45-70 rounds might clean out much of the plastic, as would many of the cleaners like Hoppies #9 (that smell always reminds me of my Dad,I still take his old 16ga Fox Sterlingworth out for a hunt at least once a season even though it doesn't fit me all that well).
     John M.     A Connecticut Yankee

[Larry Gibson]

jhalcott

"I have a 45/70 barrel that gets little use. I just got back from a deer hunt in Maine and missed several chances at Partridge birds.I DID GET THE DEER THOUGH! Any way I was thinking about loading the 45/70 with a shot charge for the bird and squirrel shooting opportunities I get. They used to call these loads "Forager" loads. Does any one have any info on them.? Do I need an over powder wad.and what kind? Any info would be very appreciated.[/quote]"

I have duplicated the "forager" loads with smokeless powder for use in my TDs.  Here's the recipe;  R-P case (fireformed) with WLR primer, 10 gr Unique over powder with 1/2 gr dacron on top of the powder,  a Federal 410SC shot cup pressed into the case with a dowel, the shot cup filled with 8 1/2 shot, an inverted GC or .006" wad (Waters) seated over the shot and a roll crimp applied.  Velocity runs 1160 fps out of my 22" carbine and it is effective on ruffs and blue grouse out to 20-25 yards.  I usually carry several when hunting for the contingencies you mentioned.

As the Fed wad is somewhat loose in the head part of the case the dacron is there just to firmly keep the powder in place.  Otherwise the powder mitgates up around the base of the wad and squib/hangfires occur.  With the dacron performance is consistant and satisfying - or at least as satisfying as it can be shooting shot out of a rifled bore.  Still if shots are kept inside 25 yards I've had no trouble killing the birds mentioned.  I have "patterned" quail at 25 yards so I keep the shots on them to inside 20 yards.

Larry Gibson

[Old Griz]

:cb2: Sorta off the subject, but close . . . I was at the range one day when I noticed the guy next to me was shooting .45-70 cartridges in his single shot .410 shotgun. I warned the guy on the other side of him, and we both moved on down to other booths.

[sawfish]

 For 45/70 shot loads, I copied this recipe from an old shooting magazine article.  Use 10.0 Unique with 410 shot cup (Federal); sleeve the case with an index card and use a cardboard over powder wad. Fill with shot (#8-#9 preferable), and use cardboard wad over shot.  Cut the cardboard wads from a tablet backer with an empty hull.

 The same basic recipe is supposed to work in .444 Marlin, but the index card sleeve is not necessary.  I bought the shot cups, but never got around to trying this.  So no promises.

You can probably use gas checks for the op/os wads without the shot cup, but they will interfere with the pattern.  Since all shots will be relatively close, this may not matter.  While not a shot load, I have used three #1 buckshot in the Speer plastic 38/357 shot capsules in my 38/357 handguns, and the pellets strike surprisingly close together.  Good Luck.

[Sixgun]

I have a shot load that I do for my pistol cartridges that works pretty good.  In my 44 mag I put in 4 gr of unique and then put a gas check snug, over the powder, I fill what is left with shot and then crimp a gas check in the end.  With my 357 I use 3 gr of unique.

I have used these loads for grouse and they are effective out to about 40 feet.  They also work great on the neighbors cats and dogs.  One neighbor thanked me for shooting his dog with this load instead of killing it he just had to take it to the vet to get the shot and one gas check out.  He was kind of hot when he came over to see me but I explained that the dog was chasing my livestock and I didn't know whose dog it was and I just wanted to send it home.  He cooled down and thanked me for not killing his dog.  He has livestock too.

Anyway, I got off the subject a little bit there but I would think that a 45/70 would do real good with a load like this.  I would start with about 8 to 10 gr of unique.  You don't want to get too much velocity, just enough to penetrate a piece of plywood at about 40 to 50 feet.  If you only shoot these occasionally you won't have a lead problem.  I just shoot a hot jacketed bullet or two and have never seen an accuracy loss from shooting these loads in my pistols.

Sixgun