45-70 Guide Gun (not ported): How bad the recoil???

[Big Paulie]

Dear Guys,

    All of these great posts and pictures of the Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun (not ported) have gotten my attention.  I especially like how everyone says they are really "fun" to shoot.

    Here is my issue:  I don't like heavy recoil.  About 15 pounds of free recoil energy is about all I can stand.  Also, I don't (and will not) hand load.

    So, how much (and how bad) is the recoil of the 45-70 Guide Gun with each of the following factory rounds?

    1.  The standard old 405 grain Govt Load.

    2.   The 300 grain loads.

General comments, plus any actual calculations of free recoil energy, would certainly be appreciated.  (Assume gun weighs 7 pounds.)

Thanks, Big Paulie

[mr.frosty]

I have a 1895 and I dont think the recoil is all that bad.
I currently shoot 300 gr. Winchester JHP and no problem with them either.
I think the recoil for my setup is around 18 to 23 fps. of energy.
Then again I dont think the recoil from my 300 WSM is that bad either
and it recoils somewhere between 27 and 30 fps of recoil energy.
There are too many recoil protection products on the market to dampen the blow by any rifle.When you have an angry bear or hog coming at you
to do what ever they want ..recoil will be the last thing you think of.

[Big Paulie]

Awwwwk!  I just found a recoil chart on line, which shows that a 7 pound rifle, shooting just the standard Govt. 405 grain bullet, is around 23 foot pounds or recoil!  I guess that people just have a different definitions of what the word "fun" means when it comes to shootin rifles!

    The chart also shows that in a 7.5 pound rifle, the factory 300 grain loads are about 18 foot pounds.

    How anyone is getting off quick follow-up shots out of these rifles is a mystery to me.  Between each shot, I would have to bend down and find my glasses in the weeds!

   Guess I'd better find a tamer round.

Best Regards,

Big Paulie

[victorcharlie]

The standard 405 grain Remingtons are not to bad.  More of a push than a sharp blow.  A good recoil pad is in order however.......It is a very fun gun to shoot,  and most of what I've been shooting has been the PMC 350 gn HA or +P+.  This load has substantial recoil, but is very accurate in my rifle.
 
The 300 grain remingtons are about like the 405's and I can't tell much difference.
 
You can always shoot factory cowboy loads which are reportedly very mild but I've never shot any myself.  Someone else will have to tell you about them.
 
My rifle is a standard 22" barrel, not a guide gun......

[Mac11700]

With a little practice...you would be surprised just how fast you can get off a second or third shot at a target...you just got to learn to roll with it...and not fight against it...


Mac

[leverfan]

Guess I'd better find a tamer round.

It's called the 444 Marlin.   Just put a soft recoil pad on the back of your rifle, or stick with 265 grain or lighter loads, and you should enjoy shooting it.  My 444 isn't ported, and it has a very hard rubber butt pad (it sure ain't much of a recoil pad).  It's still fun to shoot.  With a softer pad, it would be a pussy cat.  Remember, it's not all about foot pounds of recoil, either.  Recoil velocity plays a big part in how we feel the shock of recoil.  The 444 generates recoil on a par with the 300 Winchester mag, but my shoulder disagrees, because the 444 takes a lot longer to deliver all that energy to me.  Unless the game you hunt packs calipers, it'll never know it was shot with a 444 instead of a 45-70.

If the 444 seems like too much, track down a 356 Winchester.  Also, rumor has it that the 30-30 has been downing game of all types for over 100 years, and it sure doesn't kick too hard. :-D

[Big Paulie]

Leverfan,

   I can see your point about recoil, being delivered over a slower (longer) time period.  This probably explains why I can shoot my .50 caliber blackpowder rifle about 50 times from the bench with no real pain.   It is a Uberti copy of the Remington Rolling Block, and I shoot 200 grain bullets with 80 grains of FFg.   It gives you a long hard push, like somebody pushing you in a crowd, instead of that sharp crackling stab that seems to go straight to the bone.

   I think that like most people, I am drawn to the beauty and handiness of the Marlin Guide Gun (non ported) with the 18.5 inch barrel.  I also think it would be a great seller if offered iin 35 Remington.

    Well, what can you say about the 30-30?  It is one of those rounds that is so utterly perfect for the job, that it becomes boring.  There is very little that you can "tune up" in a Marlin 336 in this caliber, except for the types of sights you choose.

   In 45-70, it looks like the 405 grain cowboy load is only moving out at about 1,275 feet per second, so this is probably fairly mild shooting.   I wonder, has anybody used this load on deer?

Regards,

Big Paulie

[Leverdude]

I'v used 405 grain factory rounds on deer & every time I hit one it got dead quick. The 405 Remington load is lsted at 1300fps but I never chronographed it out of my Guide gun, maybe 1000 to 1100 fps?
I'v also used PMC's hardcast 405 load. They say 1250 fps on the box but I'v also seen t listed at 1350 fps. Again I never measured it & figure its going 1000 to 1100 from my 18.5" barrel.
Shot a 170 lb whitetail with this one in Nov, Nov 17th to be exact at 11:30 AM  :wink:  & he didnt take not one step. Walked between 2 trees & when his shoulder got past the trunk of the first tree that 405 grain hunk of lead slammed him into the other one.

IMO these loads are light recoiling. To my shoulder the 300 grain rounds at 1800fps or so hit me harder & destroy more meat. The slow 405's you can almost eat to the hole. The hardcast especially didnt ruin any meat at all. Looked very much like a bow kill when I opened him up. Clean holes thru the ribcage & lungs, no jelly at all.

I'v shot the 350 grain PMC 45/70+p+ load & its a hammer for sure but not needed for my deer hunting.

IMO unless your hunting larger game than whitetails or expect long shots you wont be missing much (except recoil) using the anemic, weak, rainbow trajectory, old fashioned 405 grain hunks of lead.

[gwhilikerz]

Get yourself a NEF Pardner 12 ga and about 3 boxes of shells. Go to the range a shoot them all up. You will never worry about rifle recoil again :-D

[Perferator]

Paulie,  I agree with the comment on differences in felt recoil.  My two main rifles are the Guide Gun 45-70 and a Savage 111 in .270.  I'll shoot that Guide Gun for 40-50rds, medium loaded 350gr (but more than gov't) and not feel the least bit sore even the next day.  The key is to hang on tight, grip the lever tight and let 'er go.  After the session with the "thumper" I'll grab the .270.....now that makes me sore.  Why?  Felt recoil is reality, ft lbs of recoil is not.  I use max loads in the .270 but it only figures about 15lbs and the 45-70 is more than double that.  If I believed the figures then I'd be scared to death to pull the trigger on the guide gun....but nope.  It aint reality like felt recoil.

You will love the Guide Gun!  It's the most fun I've had shooting....just cant stand to leave it behind when I hit the woods (maybe for birds).



Perferator

[SD Shooter]

Big Paulie,

My son and I took Marlin Guide Guns in 45-70 to Canada for a bear hunt in 2003.  My son was 16 and weighed about 140 lbs.  After the bear hunt in Saskatchewan, we drove to Alaska for a couple of months.  We spent lots of time fishing, hiking and camping.  We picked the 45-70 for several reasons including the legal issues in Canada, and the ability to have a suitable gun to deal with a grizz if need be.  The 45-70 worked great on the black bears.  We did not have the need to deal with a grizz which was great from our position.  

Prior to making the trip we spent a lot of time fine tuning the guns.  We started off with factory ammo.  I had a Guide Gun that was ported and I traded it off because it was so loud.  So we were both using stainless Guide Guns, not ported.  I found it necessary to cut the stock off on my son's rifle because of his size.  We also installed Kick-eez recoil pads on both rifles.  After we were comfortable with the set up, we started using very hot ammo which I was handloading.  After some practice, we bought some very hot ammo - Garrechts, Buffalo Bore and Corbon.  We found that the Buffalo Bore was really uncomfortable to shoot.  The Corbon was OK.  The Garrechts was the best and had the most documentation as to its performance.  At the time I was developing all of this information and experimenting with the ammo & rifles, Marlin Firearms had a great website forum.  I was on it several times each day gathering info on the different loads.  To make a long story short, we ended up buying and taking with us some of the Garrecht ammo.  We both practiced enough to be comfortable.

I agree with you that I don't like a lot of recoil.  I still shoot some pretty hot rifles (375 H&H, 300 Win Mag), but I have installed very good recoil pads to be sure that they don't hurt.  My recommendations are to use the Kick-eez or Limbsaver.  Pachmeyer Decellerator is also very good. Getting hurt is not fun.  And as I get older, it takes me longer to get over the hurt.

Don't give up on the Guide Gun.  It is a great piece of equipment and we were very pleased with them in all of the aspects of our trip.  Incidently, I have killed two elk and one whitetail with my guide gun.  Just used it as a change of pace.

Hope you get this worked out.

Best of luck & Merry Christmas.

SD Shooter

[pastorp]

Big Paulie, I haven't used the 405 rem. load on deer but on our black bear here in southeast alaska they work very well. As far as recoil goes, it is not only the pad but the shape of the stock also. I find the marlin guide guns to be more comfortable for me than most bolt actions. Regards, Byron

[castman]

Since you dont reload, I don't think you will find anything less than 15 ft lbs recoil. I love to shoot and shoot a lot I do.I decided on the 45/70 knowing I could load it down.  Ive put 250 rounds through mine so far in about 3 weeks, I love it to say the least. Im loading a 405 FNPB at 1050fps which recoils at 10 ft lbs, and can put 100 rds downrange and never feel it(factory pad). The remington loads rate at 15-17 pounds. I think you would be fine with those. Id stay away from buffalo bore, corbon, and garrett unless you have really stopped up sinuses or retinas that you consider to be too tight and want to loosen up. Get a 1895 and you wont regret it.

[Loozinit]

I don't own a Marlin Guide Gun because I think they are about as ugly as one of those old grey, three-cylinder Saab coupes (I apologize to any Old Saab fans out there).  I feel I can speak with some objectivity as I'm pretty ugly, too.  And, things ain't improvin'.  But, the Saab was workmanlike, reliable and well-made as is the Marlin.
I do own a 45-70 Cowboy and an 1886 Win. (Miroku).  I shoot alot at the range and I can tell you that I agree about felt recoil.  With Rem 405's I can plink all day with the Win (10lbs) and not feel it in the old bones.  But, with the Marlin - oh boy howdy!!  I use the Marlin for hunting because it's not as pretty and the Win for plinking and I find no added return (no pun) by using hotter ammo.  I've tried them and they are not measurably more accurate off-hand (like real hunting).  The old loadings do fine.  In the old days that's all they had and last time I checked, the critters  haven't gotten any more lethal.  Mostly, I have hunted either with .300 Savage, .30-WCF or .50 Roundball out of a GPR or Tennessee Mountain Rifle.  I like that old stuff - even the Saabs.  It's a Saab story.

[pastorp]

Big Paulie, If a 45/70 GG is too much recoil try a 1894 in 45LC. The recoil is much less. Regards, Byron

[Mac11700]

I don't own a Marlin Guide Gun because I think they are about as ugly as one of those old grey, three-cylinder Saab coupes (I apologize to any Old Saab fans out there).  I feel I can speak with some objectivity as I'm pretty ugly, too.  And, things ain't improvin'.  But, the Saab was workmanlike, reliable and well-made as is the Marlin.
I do own a 45-70 Cowboy and an 1886 Win. (Miroku).  I shoot alot at the range and I can tell you that I agree about felt recoil.  With Rem 405's I can plink all day with the Win (10lbs) and not feel it in the old bones.  But, with the Marlin - oh boy howdy!!  I use the Marlin for hunting because it's not as pretty and the Win for plinking and I find no added return (no pun) by using hotter ammo.  I've tried them and they are not measurably more accurate off-hand (like real hunting).  The old loadings do fine.  In the old days that's all they had and last time I checked, the critters  haven't gotten any more lethal.  Mostly, I have hunted either with .300 Savage, .30-WCF or .50 Roundball out of a GPR or Tennessee Mountain Rifle.  I like that old stuff - even the Saabs.  It's a Saab story.

My wife would beg to differ with you on it's apperance...she calls my 1895GS..." The Pretty One"...that's how she tells the differences in them...and for a stainless Lever Gun...it's a whole lot prettier than any Winchester ever built    and it doesn't rattle like a Whinny either :-D  :-D of course...that's just my opinion......

Mac

[hogship]

[quote="Mac11700

My wife would beg to differ with you on it's apperance...she calls my 1895GS..." The Pretty One"...that's how she tells the differences in them...and for a stainless Lever Gun...it's a whole lot prettier than any Winchester ever built    and it doesn't rattle like a Whinny either :-D  :-D of course...that's just my opinion......

Mac[/quote]

IMHO....the 1895GS is pretty ugly.....but, I bought one anyway! A lever gun just doesn't look right in stainless, by any measure of traditional standard. I bought a 1895GS recently, but only after long and careful consideration. Could have saved about $80 if I went with a traditional blued 1895, but, I gotta admit that stainless is a better choice for a hunting rifle. I have several hunting rifles that are stainless. For all-weather use, stainless is the best choice.....but, they ARE ugly for sure!

hog