Author Topic: Changing Tactics (long post) (Read 1396 times)

JPH45 · « **on:** December 15, 2004, 04:35:01 PM »

Maybe it is better said adding a hunting area. What I knew would happen to me while hunting, finally did. Sunday I watched a four pointer walk along the top of a hill about 170 yards from me. He might as well have been on the moon, I was carrying my 45-70 loaded with pure lead 405 HP's moving at a sedate 1175 fps. Load shoots 4" low at 100 yards zeroed at 70 yards. Drop at 170? Don't even want to talk about it. To boot, I was simply walking along on my way back to the house having seen a bit of fresh sign, but no deer.

I've known this was coming for quite some time, I've simply not given it the true attention I needed to. The young buck could as well have been the big one, and there I was, just out ranged.

I've been playing with my 30-30 working up loads and such for it for such times, but one has to have it with 'em. The rifle is up to the task, but the current scope is not. In fact I am sure it is broken, it doesn't shift impact as windage and elevation is moved, then suddenly it will move twice the amount imputted.

I have been quite serious about a 38-55 barrel, but am shifting toward the 308 bull barrel. I believe the extra forward weight will aid a fellow who mostly still hunts, but I'm gonna need a high quality scope to go on this rig as it is most likely going to become the rifle I take when I go out when and sit on a stand....er, my neighbors porch that is. Their porch overlooks a pond with an area the deer use heavily but no one hunts, everyone is hunting either side of this. Shots will be 125 yards minimum to 200 yards across the pond.

I want to be able to sit on this site in the morning, then slip through the woods in the late morning as I return to the house, and use the opposite tack in the evening, arriving on the porch about an hour before sunset. The woods edge I have killed 5 deer out of in 3 years is visible from the porch, about 250 yards away. I can approach the house from behind, disturbing the areas little to none at all. I can also see thes from above the house but the range increases by 50 yards, but it makes even less noise getting to.

So, the possibile shot distances range from quick offhand at 25 yards to near target shooting type shots at the extreme range I would shoot at game at all.

I was asking earlier about the 25-06 or 7-08, I don't think I give up much of anything to either of those in the 308, and get a barrel that has the potential of smoothing out my off hand shooting as well.

Is my thinking sound or am I just BS'n myself? What kind of scope would you guys suggest? It must be capable of having external knobs added and be REPEATABLE!!!!! When I plop my butt on the porch, I want to be able to crank the elevation from a 150 yard zero to a 250 yard zero and NOT have to question if the scope did it's job.

Christmas bonus allowing, I'm gonna get the scope and stick it on my 30-30, get the use I can from it this season. I figure it will be next hunting season before I can take the 308 out.

What do ya think?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** December 15, 2004, 04:54:48 PM »

A normal load for the .308 win has a MPBR of over 275yds, no scope adjustments are necessary.

Quote

Mountain game consists primarily of various species of sheep, goats, and perhaps mule deer. All of these are CXP2 class game, so there are many suitable high intensity cartridges that offer a MPBR of 275 yards or more. Reasonable choices include the .257 Roberts, 6.5x55, 6.5x57, .260 Remington, 7x57, 7mm-08 Remington, .308 Winchester, .30-06, and 8x57JS. The flat shooting .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, .243 WSSM, 6x62 Freres, .240 Weatherby Magnum, .25-06, .257 Weatherby Magnum, 6.5mm Remington Magnum, 6.5x65 RWS, 6.5x68, .264 Winchester Magnum, .270 Winchester, 7x64 Brenneke, and .280 Remington can extend the MPBR to 300 yards or more with selected loads.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/mountain_rifles.htm

De41mag · « **Reply #2 on:** December 15, 2004, 05:01:47 PM »

JPH45;

I've got a Leupold 6X42AO straight power, they say it's used for hunter benchrest matches or good for a AR-15 Tactical. It's on my T/C 22Classic Benchmark. When I go to the range I know exactly what to set my target knobs at wheather using CCI MiniMags or target ammo at 100yds. If you set the scope at a certian yardage then need to move up, They will hold their Zero. The scope is expenisive, last I seen it was $399.00. But its worth it in my opinion. You may not want to spend that much. But I thought I would tell you.

Dennis

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** December 15, 2004, 05:12:38 PM »

Jim, I think you may like the Burris Fullfield II 3-9x40 with the Ballistic Plex reticle. It comes with a card for each specific caliber that provides a range for each graduation on the verticle scale. It sells for $204 at The Optic Zone. I have one on my .25-06 Ultra, great scope and I think it comes with a free Burris Landmark 20x50 light weight spotter.

http://www.burrisoptics.com/fullfield.html

http://www.theopticzone.com/

fish280 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 15, 2004, 05:29:15 PM »

6x leupold with target knobs. but like the other guy said, that bull 308 is plenty good to 300.

Longcruise · « **Reply #5 on:** December 15, 2004, 05:51:41 PM »

Quote

Load shoots 4" low at 100 yards zeroed at 70 yards. Drop at 170? Don't even want to talk about it.

Gonna be about 17 or 18 inches if zeroed at 100 and about 5 or 6 if zeroed at 150 but then that would put you about 8 incehs high at 80 yards. These are doable but are more a thinking mans ballistics than a woodsmans. I agree with your assessment that the shot was not doable under the circumstances. Also feeling a pang of guilt at having patted you on the back and encouraged you to take up this load :oops:

In any case, this happens eventually to all hunters regardless of time and place. Happens to the antelope hunter accustomed to the 200 yard shot who must pass up the 600 yard shot as well as to the thick cover deer hunter like yourself. One solution is to fix your eyes on the ground in front of you as you travel through the woods. That way you won't see the dang deer and have no regrets

Quote

What do ya think?

I think just about any cartridge from 6mm up to .375 that shoots a bullet with an SD of 150 or 175 with a minimum muzzle velocity of 2700 fps will do this job just fine if it meets the accuracy requirements and if you have a good shooting position. Back porch shooting generally allows good shooting position. :grin: And, any of those calibers would do it with a plain jane 3X9 or even a straight 4X or 6X. Holdovers out to 300 yards should be no-brainers with the understanding that you know the yardage to within 25 yards or so. And, if you don't know the yardages then messing with the dials of a super whizmo ultra tactical mil spot/dot 1.5X45X80mm will not do any good anyway IMO.

All of the above saturated with same robust self certainity that applauded your change to 45-70 and 405's at 1175 fps

Mac11700 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 15, 2004, 07:48:54 PM »

JPH45:

Ahhhhhhhhh...another 308 fan...and getting my favorite barrel as well :wink:

You'll love how much steadier you can be with them over the standard barrel...they take a-bit getting used to carrying for a long way...but I'll give you a suggestion on a relativly cheap strap that makes it seem almost effortless to carry them...(at least for me)...it's the Supersling that most Walmarts carry...cost about $26.00 if I remember right...it's the Mossy Oak condura one with the wide leather cushioned pad and thumb strap on it...works great...

I had a chance to compare my 26"... 25-06 and my old restocked 22"....308 Survivor bull barrel last weekend while deer hunting with my neighbor,whom I sold it to.They are about the same weight (by feel only...no scale to put them on)...they balance pretty much the same...so...you wouldn't have to worry about that aspect as much as you would think..so if your still thinking about the 280 or the 25-06...I'd say go for it if you want...after I get my bull barrel back from NEF...I'll be sending off for the 280 barrel.....then the 223 bull barrel...and the 243 bull barrel...might as well do them all...

Scope choice...boy...there are a-lot of good choices to make on this one...and everybody has a favorite...wanting turret knobs are nice for the target range...but...hunting with them exposed...(shudder)...I couldn't...not in some of the stuff I hunt in...you would think you walked into some old growth forest up in Oregon or Washington state...and it is some of the oldest old growth stuff we have here in Missouri...thick...nasty blow downs...sink holes...choke vines and Laural thickets...anyway...let's see...I'm not sure how much you want to drop on optics...but 250 yard zero...most good 3x9's can give you that...and if I was going to worry about changing zero's...it would have to be either the Burris Ballistic Plex like Quick said...or the Leupold BP or Boon & Crockett reticle on the VX-3's......the Burris's are definatly cheaper...and I've seen them for as little as $200-$300...and they come with a fixed power spotting scope for the 3-9 for the $200...and their variable one for the $300...or...under $200 for just the scope...If you have to have the Target turrets on them...I've seen them offered for any of the VX-2 Leupolds...as an additional cap you screw on...and they come standard on the VX-3's...I can look up more correct prices for you if you want...and drop you a PM or post it ...but I can tell you...I've had a-lot of different scopes...and I know everone says the Leupolds are over priced...and maybe they are somewhat...but...I'm also a firm beliver in them...even in the VX-1's...since they are what's on all of my rifles now...and...I'll be sending them in to have the Boon & Crockett reticle put in them...just as soon as it is available...some time next year.....

Mac

Greybeard · « **Reply #7 on:** December 15, 2004, 09:36:06 PM »

All you really need is the kinda scopes that ALL of my hunting rifles wear. A good 2-7 or 3-9 is plenty of scope. With either of the three rounds you mention as being possible purchases (7-08, .308 and .25-06) none will require any adjustment to the scope if you sight in correctly. If you're maximum shooting range will be 250 yards just sight in dead on at 200 yards with either and hold on the deer for all your shots without having to even think about range. Now the .30-30 in my mind is running out of steam at 250 yards and I'd not want to use it there personally.

My recommendation for a scope is the Bushnell Elite 3200. Take your pick of 2-7 or 3-9. I have both on rifles I use for deer hunting. With this scope if you do make an adjustment you can be sure it will move as you wish it to.

Wlscott · « **Reply #8 on:** December 16, 2004, 03:40:55 AM »

I agree with GB. According to my ballistics softwear, using a .308 with a 165 grain bullet at 2600 fps you should have a point blank range out to around 245. If you can load them to 2900 fps you'll just extend that out a little further.

I think you're trying to make it more complicated than it is :lol: If you're doing that because you just want some cool toys, I'm right there with ya brother

Otherwise, just get any one of the rifles you mentioned (I'd get teh .308) and a high quality scope (I like the 4-16 power range myself) and go hunting.

jeff223 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 16, 2004, 03:45:29 AM »

jph45,im with graybeard on the scope thing.just a good 2-7 or 3-9 will work just great.

you ever thought about a 270.the 270 would do you a great job as well.i might be able to fix you up with a barrel,lee dies and some new and used 270brass if you think you can fit the barrel to one of your fraimes.i was going to wait till after X Mas to sell the barrel on the clasified forum.i havent used the 270 in years because i live in the shotgun zone here in Michigan.i did shoot 3 bucks with it years back with factory Remington ammo.never did work up a good hand load for it.the 270 is one flat shooting SOB.i want to get another barrel for my Contender pistol and i have many more rifles to use if i need one so i wouldnt miss the 270 barrel

this barrel is in A1 shape and the bore is brite and shinny.PM me if you would like it

buckslayer · « **Reply #10 on:** December 17, 2004, 09:15:14 AM »

hey JPH, funny about the porch "stand". i used a swimming pool deck the other day.......... i saw 4 deer come in the back yard :wink: i was sitting in,(it's a 5 acre chicken farm w/ a small field, about 1/2 acre the deer use every night) 1 buck ,3 does. i shot the buck at 100 yds and he dropped were he stood,the shoulders broken. the 3 does took off runnin', one stopped at the the edge of the wood ,gave me a front chest shot, i shot she made it 10 yds w/ her heart completly gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. i was using my H&R ultra slug hunter 20 ga. the doe i shot was at 170 yds i held center chest and the barnes EXpander 5/8 oz dropped about 8''(its 2'' high at 50 yds) takin' the heart to "the happy huntin' ground" :lol: i love sittin' on pools

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #11 on:** December 17, 2004, 10:29:26 AM »

Hey JPH45 do you remember the conversation we had about a month ago? It was right after the big hog I shot with the 45 70 at 160 yds. If you remember I was griping about the fact that I had left the 280 barrel in the truck,knowing with my luck I would get a longer shot. I think I remember you saying that there was'nt any chance that would happen in your area. :-D :-D I know how you feel about it but I just had to rub it in. Digger (get a 280 barrel and you're good for just about any distance)

JPH45 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 17, 2004, 11:56:39 AM »

Well guys, thanks for coming to my rescue. Site was down last night (least I couldn't get here) so I sat down and poured over the books, and I'm gonna get a 308 HB. I just don't see it giving up anything to any other chambering, and much as I like "anything but a thirty cal", I have to also admit a thiry is hard to beat. It'll be next week before Santa comes, so I don't yet know how much money I will have to spend, but a fellow I know from home who posts on another site put it best...."I have found cheap scopes cost me more money than laying out for a good one to begin with". It is very tempting to cheap out on scopes, especially when a good one can cost more than the rifle, but the fact is, a rifle that doesn't shoot because of a bad scope is no rifle at all.

Longcruise, I knew this day was coming. It is impossible to walk this land every few days and not be aware the eventualities, at least not if one is paying attention. I passed on a doe later that day because I didn't feel like cleaning and butchering that evening. The shot was an easy 50 yarder, and would have been perfect for that pure lead 458er, so some shots we pass up because they are beyond our range or skill, and some we pass up because we're lazy. :roll: So don't feel bad about your encouragement, I will continue to hunt with that load, I do want to see how it performs. More than anything, I realized that I have not been hunting in a manner that opens every possiblity of a shot, whether I take it or not. I may even talk with my neighbor about a key, so I can leave a rifle there, and be able to hunt with two rifles, one for walking in the woods, one for sittin' on the porch. They are afterall two different styles of hunting.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #13 on:** December 17, 2004, 12:08:39 PM »

JPH45, I know you have your heart set on that HB .308 and I must say it's a GREAT choice, but in the interst of fairness give the H&R .280 Ultra 26" barrel a good look at, you just might like what you see. I don't mean to muddy the water, it's just a darn good round in a great dimensioned barrel!!!....<><.... :grin:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 17, 2004, 12:11:59 PM »

Hi...I'm Mac 11700 and I'm a Handiholic...

Buy them both when you can...the 280 is great...soooo is the 308 Bull Barrel...soooo is all the rest.... :wink:

Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** December 17, 2004, 12:15:10 PM »

The .280 is my next barrel of choice after all that I have read about it, it's gotta be a great round!

JPH45 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 17, 2004, 12:28:29 PM »

Yep, good 'ol 7mm-06, as hard to beat as it's daddy :grin: I would have most likely went with a 7-08, but the only barrel I see listed is the superlight, just not my cup of tea.

Fred M · « **Reply #17 on:** December 17, 2004, 01:04:42 PM »

JPH45
Get a 26" 280 Rem take a hacksaw an whack off three inches, and you get exactly what you are looking for, and then some.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #18 on:** December 17, 2004, 02:07:21 PM »

I agree, I avoid the superlights also, never heard of one that would shoot....<><.... :grin:

P.S. - Checking the 2004 barrel accessory brochure I only see the standard weight 22" 7mm-08 barrel with scope rail and hammer spur listed, no listing for a superlight barrel at all. The standard weight barrel is #707 and the price is listed at $82.00....<><.... :grin:

Donaldo · « **Reply #19 on:** December 18, 2004, 05:57:04 PM »

If you don't want to spend a bunchabucks on a scope you might take a look at the Bushnell Trophy in the 3-9x40. Pretty good scope for the money. Usually a bit less than $100 most places. I have one and think it is OK.

JPH45 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 18, 2004, 06:53:08 PM »

I've been using the cheap BSA 4X on my 357 and 45-70 with no troubles, (cash shortage) so I took the one off my 357 and have put it on my 30-30 barrel for the time being. This scope has proven to be absolutely reliable over the last two years. It will be tommorow before I can zero it, but I should at that point have a 200 yard rifle. So in the AM I will be out with the 45-70, in the PM I will be out with the 30-30. Wish I had the 30-30 in the AM, but sometimes you get run what you brung.

I'm looking pretty seriously at a Simmons fixed 4X at the moment, but have not made any hard and fast decisions. I like this scope as it offers a 40 mm objective coupled with a low power that still gives good magnification. With such a big objective and the low power, it should be a very bright scope. My thoughts at the moment.

fish280 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 19, 2004, 03:31:24 AM »

jp:
you might also look for a used weaver el paso steel tube 4x. they go for $30-$40 on the 'net.
also, i found a redfield steel tube 6x widefield at mark's outdoors here in b'ham last week. used. $45. wish i had picked it up. might have to check back on it.
i have one of those bsa 4x scopes on my son's .308 ultra hb. it is a dandy little scope so far. went through a two-inch downpour without fogging. lets in enough light to let me kill a six-point at the slap edge of dark a few weeks ago.
there ain't nothin' wrong with a quality used scope. as for new, look after Christmas for a nikon buckmaster 4x40, or go to midwayusa.com and bag you a new weaver k4 or k6 for $120 or so.
go get 'em. :wink:

Longcruise · « **Reply #22 on:** December 19, 2004, 06:11:59 AM »

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I've been using the cheap BSA 4X on my 357 and 45-70 with no troubles

I love those scopes :-) Right now I've got a 3X9 on my 223 T3 but after load development is finished (before 1/1 if the weather co-operates) I'll do a final sight in with one of the 4X BSA scopes.

Quote

in the PM I will be out with the 30-30.

So, what load have you settled on for this foray?

Stand by for a slightly different approach to load development in the 30-30 using lee 180 cast. Successful or not, it should at least be educational

JPH45 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 19, 2004, 02:29:41 PM »

I'm loading the Sierra Pro Hunter 150 at 2300 fps+ (33.7 grains of WC 846, 34 grains of H335 should get to the same place this load pushes both the SST 150 and 147 FMJ from gibrass to 2360, elevations of fired rounds indicate this velocity) I got the BSA 4x32 on and sighted in today, 1.25" high at 50, 2.5" high at 100, shoud give right at 2.5-3" low at 200, be zero for practical purposes at 170 or so. I've only got 21 of those Noslers left, and want to save them for when I got a 308 barrel. I was considering the 165 Grand Slam, but it is not shown in the Speer manual for use in the 30-30 hand gun. Starting velocities there run at about 2000 fps, a couple push 2100. I figure if they don't list it for use in the handgun section, it is too hard for reliable expansion at lower velocities. The Pro Hunter series is a simple cup/core bullet that should perform quite well at the low end of velocity range. I tried it because I wanted to see how accurate it is.....1 3/8" at 100 yards, even with winds gusting to 30 mph :eek: Three shots make 3/4" and this is the first load I have tried with this bullet. I did enough shooting with it that I feel very confident in the scope and the load for use at longer range. This scope performed as it always has, input a given amount of elevation or windage, it moves to that spot and stays.

I do like these little scopes, of three I have only had trouble with one, and I'm taking it back to Wally World for an exchange. I have also found them to be very clear, I was quite surprised putting one on the 45-70, it has stood more than a few 400's at 1600 fps+ and continues to adjust properly and remains clear and unfogged. I figure this one I've had trouble with

My Lee 180 is undersize on the bore rider, I am looking at the Lyman 311248. this was original designed for the 30-40, and is a full diameter bullet, which should shoot better than the bore rider with less trouble, but properly fit bore riders have a good name for themselves. Loking forward to hearing what you're doing.

On another note, I have neck sized this current group of cases 3 times and see no lengthening of the case. I am using the Lee collet die, and took the mandrel, chucked it in a lathe and filed it down a few thousands, (to .304 it seems) and the bullets fit as tight in the neck as the first sizing. Untill I reduced the mandrel diameter, the second sizing of a case would NOT develop good neck tension on the bullet. I annealed the necks of first batch of cases I was using, and still had to full length resize ever other firing, the original diameter of the mandrel simply didn't reduce the diameter enough for proper bullet tension as the neck began to work harden. I'll have to watch these cases close to see if the neck cracks before they develop insipient case seperation.

I can say this, now that I have a good scope on the 30-30, my opinion of the rifle has has changed. I was thinking I had a mediocre barrel, but I can plainly see, this is not so.

Longcruise · « **Reply #24 on:** December 21, 2004, 07:54:03 AM »

JPH,

My 30-30 brass acts the same way. It barely stretches at all.

On another thread, Quick posted a link to a site that contained some extensive bullet test results. I've lost the link I'm sorry to say. Maybe Quick will jump in here and repost it. The guys page is very difficult to use. His entire results are posted a a single JPG image. The only way I could work with it was to save the entire image and then load it in an image viewer and zoom in on it piece by piece. If we can't find it I can email you the JPG.

The test was of 30 cal 180 grain bullets. They guy shot dang near 3,000 bullets!! I know you are inclined to the lighter bullets but you can probably use the results as indicative of the probable performance by the same bullets in the lighter weights. I scanned through it and was a bit surprised by what came up as the better bullets for the 30-30. I based my selections on the ability to expand at lower velocities and the overall integrity of the bullets and their probability of staying in one piece.

All the ones I'm listing here showed good promise in the 30-30.

Speer Mag Tip: expanded reliably down to 1700 fps with 1800 being a probable practical minimum. Also showed very good terminal charachteristics at the higher velocities up to around 2700 or 2800.

Winchester Power Point: This is a bullet that I stopped using and lost all respect for in the '60's when it proved to be so explosive out of my .264 win mag. However, it showed in the test to expand reliabley down to 1600 fps with 1700 being a probablle practical minimum velocity. It also showed pretty good integrity at the upper end of velocities.

Rem Pinted Core Lokt: This one looked good all the way down to 1700 fps and looked good up to about 2600 fps.

Rem Round Nosed Core Lokt: Round Nose Bullets! The Rodney Dangerfield of bullets! This bullet expanded reliably all the way down to 1400 fps and retained it's integrity all the way up to 3100 fps!! I think I would trust this bullet completely down to 1500 or 1600 fps. The problem in the 30-30 being loss of velocity at the longer ranges would be more than offset by it's ability to expand at the lower end. Trajectory is a whole nother thing.

Hornady Round Nose Interlock: Similar performance to the Rem RN. opened reliably down to 1700 fps.

Here's a few additional observations:

The sierra Pro Hunter seemed to stop expanding at about 1900 fps.

There were no test results for the SST.

Speer Grand Slam looked good down to about 1800 fps.

The Speer Mag Tip and the Rem RN looked every bit the equal of the Nosler Partition at the high end of velocities all the way up to 3100 fps as far as holding together and weight retention!!!!

The Nosler BT showed expansion down to 1400 fps but not a classic expansion and it also showed consistent core separations all the way down to 1400 fps. This confirmed my low opinion of the BT. It has wqrecked more meat than any bullet I've ever shot an animal with and evidently does not stay together even at minimal velocities. I know some guys like that kind of performance but IMO it would only be reliable on the smaller animals like whitetail and antelope and in those two I've personally lost some good eating to the BT.

The X bullet and fail safe look good down to about 1800 fps but others are as good or better at the low end so IMO why spend the money?

Several other premium bullets appear to be good selections also but once again, why spend the money?

The Hawk bullets, which seem to have such a good rep, showed a lot of core seps at the mid to higher end and didn't expand well at the lower end.

I would like to see some similar results on the Horn Interbond and the Accubond.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** December 21, 2004, 08:23:53 AM »

Maybe this one?
http://www.sixgunner.com/archive/mcpherson/3030.htm

JPH45 · « **Reply #26 on:** December 21, 2004, 01:06:11 PM »

Longcruise, Thanks for that. It is interesting that the Sierra Pro Hunter stopped expanding at about 1900 fps. Sounds like I may need another bullet, but it sure shoots well. I notice that the plainbase bullets I have fired shoot more consistant groups from this barrel than do BT's. At the ranges and velocities of the 30-30, I could easily be better off with simply having two working range settings on my scope as trying to find and use a VLD bullet.

I have read several sources citing the 180 MagTip as the bullet for low velocity expansion. Sam Fadala spoke highly of this bullet in his experiments to duplicate 303 Savage performance from the 30-30. (190 grain bullets at 2050 fps, the original smokless powder elk cartridge) One of my original ideas with this rifle was to get some of those bullets but finances have kept me from it so far, but with my wife now working a factory job, that could change for the better (Yeah!, Go Bonnie!!!!) I liked the result I got with the Nosler Partition, just I was saving the few I had left to experiment in with the 308, but indecision on barrels still weighs heavily with me. I am also going to get a boz of the Speer plain base HotCor bullets of 165 and 180 grains to give a wringing out. We are really just getting warmed up here.

I was out this evening and got up on a noll overlooking the eastern edge of the old coal mine I hunt, and from where I stood, only one direction offered a limited shot of 250 yards or so (I'm guessing by telephone pole distance), all else is 170 max, the majority is within 140 yards. Realistically, even the longest shot available is farther than I would be comfortable shooting, even with a 308. So the 180 weight is not out of the running yet. The next few weekends I am going to hunt the pasture edges at my neighbors, (no one has hunted there this year as yet) shots are 75 yards max, I will most likely carry my 45-70, it has yet to be bloodied and is perfect the task at that range.

As you can see, the 30-30 is certainly within its limits and mine as well, I may shift back to a 38-55 barrel. Judging by the reply of others, it sounds as though the extra barrel length is as steadying as the extra weight of the shorter barrel. I see little point in getting geared up for a once in a lifetime shot at a range that is more than twice that I can regularly practice at. It is one thing to streach ones practice by 1/2 to 3/4 again the distance. It is altogether another to streach it by 1 1/2 times. Sometimes you just enjoy the scenery. Besides, all Ihave to do is change my hunting location and I have perfect 40 yard shots on the same location.

One intrigueging load for the 308 though would be with the Hornady 220 RN. This bullet was made for the 30-40 which had a design criteria of a 220 grainer at 2200 fps. This bullet could solve a long throated 30 cal problem. Poor BC, but how much BC do you need to poke holes in deer at 200 yards and less, and if one is changing sight settings for terrain anyway, what difference does trajectory make?

Quickdtoo, That is an exellent article, I saved it when you first posted it and have yet to read it in entirety, Thanks for posting it again.

JPH45 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 21, 2004, 01:33:12 PM »

Longcruise, just went to www.realguns.com He has a nice exterior ballistics program, with practically all the bullets by the major makers in the system. The Nosler 180 Partition has for practical purposes the same trajectory as the 150 grain Pro Hunter I currently have loaded up, obviously it has better retained velocity and energy. Hmmmmmm......

If you go to this site, you have to sign up to use the calculators (a simple thing) and to get the factory bullets specs you need to click on "reset" when the calculator first opens. Youcan of course input your own data. The range increments for the calculater are only 50 or 100 yards, but it is adaquete for

Longcruise · « **Reply #28 on:** December 22, 2004, 01:22:23 PM »

Quick, That's an interesting link and I saved it for future reading. It's not the bullet test link though. After massaging the memory a bit I think the link was on the Nosler forums :oops:

JPH, Thanks for the link to real guns. Also, there is a free ballistics for windows program called Point Blank that I downloaded from www.huntingnut.com. I have at least 6 programs on my computer for balllistics and the Point Blank and Ballistics 4.13 are the ones that get used. Point Blank has bullet data with it although not all the bullets have BC's. Some of the custom makers don't seem to publish BC's :?

I think the 220 RN in the .308 would be a fantastic combo for anything one might hunt in NA with the possible exception of Kodiak Brown Bears.