Author Topic: WILD & OUTLANDISH CLAIMS (Read 1489 times)

jeff223 · « **on:** December 21, 2004, 03:34:54 AM »

i have always been able to set myself up to take shots at game closer than that.i take pride in my hunting skills so i dont have to take shots farther than that.99% of all deer killed in Michigan are killed closer than that.the ones talking about killing deer farther than that live in Michigan? i never said it couldnt be done but why would someone even want to?i think more time should be taken in sharpening ones hunting skills rather than thinking up ways of making shots farther than that

what gives with these WILD & OUTLANDISH CLAIMS?

it will be interesting to read the responces to this topic :wink:

DEPUTY · « **Reply #1 on:** December 21, 2004, 03:54:50 AM »

Old subject jeff! i hunt the south part of the state which means wide open crop lands and little to no cover or trees and a need for long range shots i used to hunt the middle of the field in ghille suits using my guns! to get closer i have bow hunted with all types, i hunted with handguns, and the etc........now when ihunt the heavy cover i use different weapons! and tree stands and ground blinds it is just another tool in the box to use and there is nothing outlandish or wild about it! get over it

Chuck White · « **Reply #2 on:** December 21, 2004, 03:57:04 AM »

jeff223;

I agree with you and, I also feel the same way when I read about people shooting some of those super tight groups out to 200 yards!

I'm satisfied when I get 2-MOA groups with my deer rifles, which includes my 209X50 Encore ML!
Varmint rifles are a different issue, there I want 1-MOA or less!

AndyHass · « **Reply #3 on:** December 21, 2004, 04:04:22 AM »

A "wild and outlandish claim" is that nobody is capable of doing anything you can't with a gun and that any hunter that doesn't hunt exactly like you is unethical.
Exactly what do you get from stirring the pot here?
You have a deer 300 yards away across an open, flat field. This ditches are full of brush so you can't stalk down them, but it's not tall enough to provide cover. The roads are above field level so no stalk opportunity there. How is it that your amazing hunting skills are going to set you up for a sub-100 yard shot? This situation is typical for the land I hunt on.
I don't have the pleasure of just hunting "for the fun of it". I can't pass up 3/4 of my shot opportunities just because they don't afford me the luxury of a convenient close shot. We have so many deer that they cost my family thousands a year in crop damage...The DNR maintains them at this level so the city people that drive up can see deer everywhere when they drive up after pumping thousands into the economy for gear they don't need. The deer used to just eat the first 3-4 rows along the edges. Last year, they ate the first 100 YARDS by the edge.
So I need to thin the deer that frequent our farm, and that requires some long shots. I have the gear and the skill to do it, so I have no qualms about it.
If you have a problem with that, why don't you start a RATIONAL discussion as to why your way is the only way. Simply implying you are a better hunter is pretty weak; I've killed the majority of my deer within 100 yards and it doesn't require that much skill to get there. It requires MUCH more skill and preparation to make long shots...when they are needed.
You've already gotten one thread locked on this subject. We don't need to revisit it again.
I'm waiting for you to explain how I am supposed to get within 100 yards of a deer 300 yards out in an open field with absolutely no cover or land contour to use...

DEPUTY · « **Reply #4 on:** December 21, 2004, 04:06:11 AM »

chuck if your happy with that then ok but i would be upset with that! for sure ! i like accuracy and performance!

DEPUTY · « **Reply #5 on:** December 21, 2004, 04:11:42 AM »

OH to heck with it ! :roll:

jeff223 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 21, 2004, 04:27:40 AM »

now Andy and DEPUTY,i dont know why you two would even respond to this.when i posted this topic i singled out no one and i named no one.i didnt even mention any yardage being shot.what would make you think i was refuring to you two? :eek:

DEPUTY · « **Reply #7 on:** December 21, 2004, 05:08:35 AM »

we are not stupid jeff all here now thats who you talking about so save the alter boy crap! you like to stir the pot thats all there is too it so get over it.

jeff223 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 21, 2004, 05:32:56 AM »

i think its more in the line of being a good fisherman

and i got a good catch today

AndyHass · « **Reply #9 on:** December 21, 2004, 07:12:30 AM »

No, it's called being a "troll". And it's juvenile. No, I didn't call YOU juvenile, but specifically trying to poke and people and stir the pot on a message board where people come to ask questions and INTELLIGENTLY discuss the topic IS juvenile. Keep it up and I'm sure you'll be "moderated" eventually. Until then, I'm not going to "feed the troll" anymore so until you want to join the intelligent discussion I'll just scroll past you.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 21, 2004, 07:13:42 AM »

I thought this was discussed before and I do not need to have anyone bated into disagreements. Everyone has there style of hunting and we need to respect there judgement. So lets keep this one civil.

jeff223 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 21, 2004, 08:06:31 AM »

you got it Redhawk1 and im with you.

i will say this though,Andy and DEPUTY joined in on this topic on their own.they added their 2 cents and i dont have a problem with that at all.must be i touched a nerve or something with them.

this topic was posted for everyone here on the muzzle loader forum.it wasnt posted for just for Andy and DEPUTY.Chuck White joined in and i think thats great for him to do so.i would like others to join in if they would like.

Omega · « **Reply #12 on:** December 21, 2004, 10:21:28 AM »

If you can talk the talk and walk the walk I say go for it. I'm not in the 300 yard club yet 221 yards (deer) and 210 yards (moose) are my furthest kills with a ML, but I am working on it. My buddies wife shot a nice mule deer this year with her Omega and a 200 grain Shockwave @ 308 laser verified yards.
different strokes for different folks, do what pleases ya.

jeff223 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 21, 2004, 01:50:19 PM »

Omega,i saw the picture of the moose that Sandi killed with the 200gr shockwave at 202 yds if i remember right.is she the one that killed the mule deer out at a distance?Kim and Sandi posted those pictures to prove the kill and everything.dont know about the yardage though,i didnt question it at the time when the picture was posted.its not that important.

it would be nice to live there in Alberta during the hunting season but i wouldnt want to live there in the winter

DannoBoone · « **Reply #14 on:** December 21, 2004, 03:17:02 PM »

Quote from: jeff223

i never said it couldnt be done but why would someone even want to?i think more time should be taken in sharpening ones hunting skills rather than thinking up ways of making shots farther than that

what gives with these WILD & OUTLANDISH CLAIMS?

it will be interesting to read the responces to this topic :wink:

I've taken most of my deer by "still hunting" (making very slow movement,
stopping, looking, studying the shapes in the woods, then slowly moving
a few more feet to do it over again). About half of my "still hunted" deer
were taken at 50yds and less. Early season 8-pointer was taken at 90yds
this fall. Although I'm not perfect at it, my hunting skills can match most.
The terrain around here in NE Iowa is that of timber and open fields, flat
land and rolling hills. There were times in the past when bucks would
present themselves 200-250yds away with no way to get any nearer on
the other side of the open fields. Gosh, did I ever miss the .25-06 that
could have been used in my home state of Nebraska! The .54 Lyman
Trade Rifle just could not be trusted to make such a shot. So a few years
ago I advanced to the Encore, and last winter I advanced to the Savage.
I can still use either to "still hunt", but when that looong shot presents
itself (I do a LOT of practicing off-season), and he happens to be a
wall-hanger, the Savage is gonna smack 'em. The Savage took the 90yd
buck previously mentioned, and we can take 'em long range, too. And I
will not consider my hunting skills compromised.

jeff223 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 21, 2004, 04:03:06 PM »

did i miss something here?

DEPUTY · « **Reply #16 on:** December 21, 2004, 05:56:57 PM »

Omega, will that air this season? we just showed some of our africa hunts! !
and when can i come hunt with you guys or better yet get you down to Michigan for some whitetail hunting!

Wlscott · « **Reply #17 on:** December 22, 2004, 10:02:42 AM »

Jeff, I try to get as close to an animal as I can before I take a shot. That's not to say that if I can't, I won't shoot. The last deer I shot was at 426 yards. There was no way to get closer and he was a bruiser.

To most, a 426 yard shot may seem like an outlandish claim. But I've been in situations where I've taken shots at much much longer ranges (back when I used to work for my Uncle :wink: ). I have a lot of confidence in the rifle I was using and in my ability to place a bullet right where I want it. If I had been toting a muzzleloader, I wouldn't have done it.

I guess my point is, getting close to game is a skill that must be practiced. It's tough, and it's enjoyable. I bowhunt, so I have to be able to get close to game. But, when I'm rifle hunting, or muzzleloader hunting, that range is extended. The only limit is the tool you're using, and your shooting ablility. Ability to shoot that far away is also a skill that is pretty hard to develop. If you have that skill, what is so outlandish about using it?

jeff223 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 22, 2004, 10:59:15 AM »

hi Wes how you doing?

this was posted here because of claims of three to four hundred shots at game with muzzle loaders.these claims were not made by many but a few.maybe they did it maybe not.claims also are being made by a company here in Michigan that make these so called long range muzzle loaders.they claim kills out out past that.i have checked out this muzz loader and it is a nice firearm. to their claims and to the claims of a few others here i say HOG WASH.

now if they were to state kills out at 200yds or maybe even 250yds with a muzzle loader i wouldnt even blink an eye.there are already to many wounded deer getting away from hunters shot at close ranges let alone claims of blasting at them out at 400

sabotloader · « **Reply #19 on:** December 22, 2004, 01:41:07 PM »

Jeff223,

Don't really want to get into a big deal with anyone here, but while they might be "wild and outlandish" to you, there are people that they are not. I am not one of them, but I know there are folks out there that have the ability to shoot great distances and get the bullet/concical/ball into the right spot to harvest an animal.

I don't think you or I would take a Polar Bear with a 22 but the Eskimo's do all time. I don't think you or I would take the shots that have been made with a common old open-sight 30-30 but people have made them and some continue to make them.

To say that a modern inline in the hands of the right person with the right load could not make a 300/400 yard shot "can't be done" - well, I guarantee you there is someone out there that could prove you wrong and it would not be an accident. Heck, remember the there was a 1500 yard shot taken during the civil war period that found it's mark.

Now if you are saying the majority of us should not be takeing these types of shots from any muzzleloader including the "Ultimate" I would agree, but to say that is an "outlandish shot" for everyone I would disagree.

In all the years that I have hunted I can only remember 2 animals that I have taken beyond 300 yards, but at the time I was taking those shots the conditions were perfect and the rifle I was using (270 Winchester/300 Winchester Mag) were quite capable of making those shots and more importantly I was confident that I could make those shots with those guns. Now, I can not see me taking those same shots with any of my inlines at this time, but with a few more years of experiance and more familiarity with my inlines - I think it could be done under perfect circumstances. But, as i said I am not ready to try it yet.

Just my 2 cents

jeff223 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 22, 2004, 02:16:31 PM »

sabotloader,your point is well taken.i do know for a fact shots like those mentioned can and have been done.like you said their is someone out there that can do it,the ones that can sure arnt going to be bosting about it here on a public forum.

AndyHass · « **Reply #21 on:** December 22, 2004, 03:17:00 PM »

So now you're reducing yourself to openly calling us liars. How adult of you. Even if name calling weren't against the rules here I have nothing to prove to you. I was too busy triple-checking the wind and my setup to prepare the video camera for my 373 yard shot. I really don't give a crap if you believe me or not, your posts speak for your ignorance on this subject loud and clear.
If you really have something you want to say to me, why not be a man and PM me instead of hiding behind your transparent "I never said you" innocent routine? Nobody on this board wants to see this immature bickering going on. The board has been there and done that and there is no reason to do it again.

Wlscott · « **Reply #22 on:** December 22, 2004, 03:37:39 PM »

Ahhh....I see now.

So I guess what it boils down to is this:

Jeff doesn't believe some of the claims of super long range shots made with muzzleloaders that have been made by some in this forum. Jeff also doesn't agree that those type shots should even be attempted at those ranges on game with a black powder rifle.

I have a tendancy to agree with the second statement and I'll tell you why.....

I have never handled or shot a black powder rifle that was capable of the accuracy needed to place a projectile into the kill zone of the game I hunt, in a consistant manner. AND knowing what I know about precision long range shooting, I know even less people who are actually capable of utilizing such a tool to it's full extent. That's not to say that there aren't people out there. I'm a "show me" kind of guy I guess. And THAT is why I USUALLY stay out of these kind of discussions. So, I've said my part since I rudely stuck my nose in.......Now I'm out.

Thanks for listening to my :money:

Oh yeah.....Good to see you again Jeff

AndyHass · « **Reply #23 on:** December 22, 2004, 03:50:47 PM »

Hi Scott,

You probably haven't been following this from the sounds of it, but those of us who have been shooting at the ranges in question indeed have the accuracy to do so. My Omega shoots about 4" groups on average at 400 yards...I know people who are happy with that size group at 100 yards much less 400. It is not a stock gun, but has been pillared and bedded to further reduce group size. I'm sure the others could attest to similar accuracy. I don't keep a log but I must have shot 100-150 shots at 300+ yards in the 4 months leading up to the season.
How many people shoot 150 rounds at ANY range leading into the season?
There was a thread awhile back listing all the necessary things that must be taken into consideration for long shots. It was quite an extensive list. I don't like any hunter taking shots farther than they can accurately shoot. For some people that's 50 yards...for some it's 500. They key is in knowing your limits and staying within them.
Jeff is a classic doubting Thomas who won't believe it is possible simply because he can't. To liken someone who takes a detailed and scientific approach to shooting in order to make longer shots possible to a slob hunter who probably didn't even check their sights before the season and shoots a deer in the butt at 30 yards is laughable. :-D

Omega · « **Reply #24 on:** December 22, 2004, 03:50:51 PM »

Quote from: jeff223

Omega,i saw the picture of the moose that Sandi killed with the 200gr shockwave at 202 yds if i remember right.is she the one that killed the mule deer out at a distance?Kim and Sandi posted those pictures to prove the kill and everything.

Kim shot those two critters this year. Sandi's furthest ML kill is only 165 yards.

Omega · « **Reply #25 on:** December 22, 2004, 04:08:08 PM »

Quote from: DEPUTY

Omega, will that air this season? we just showed some of our africa hunts! !
and when can i come hunt with you guys or better yet get you down to Michigan for some whitetail hunting!

The hunts all start new in the First quarter on the Men's Channel. I'd love to hunt with you Steve, but the sad truth is all non-residents have to hunt with an outfitter. If you've been stuffing a sock waiting for a good time to go I'd sure recommend the next two years. Should be the best shot at a B&C deer (Mule or Whitey) To come along in decades!

jeff223 · « **Reply #26 on:** December 22, 2004, 04:19:54 PM »

over 25 replies now to this topic and close to 300 views.

its time for this to end now.

MY POINT HAS BEEN MADE AND MANY PEOPLE HAVE SEEN AND READ

thankyou very much :wink: