Author Topic: T/C Omega troubles.... (Read 1539 times)

Two Bears · « **on:** December 26, 2004, 10:22:44 AM »

I have read I think all of the threads about the crud rings and trouble with loading the Omega rifle after it has been shot once. And the 25 acp conversion that is available (which I will probably get ) but has anybody looked at the size of the hole in the breach plug? It is so small so could the size of the hole be part of the problem? What I am getting at is that I have a Knight Bighorn 50 cal that I can and do shoot sometimes for hours at a time and not have to swab between shots or disassemble the rifle and clean it just to get another shot off I don't get a "crud ring" either but if you compare the two breach plugs side by side the hole on the Knight's breach plug is what looks to be twice as large as the one from the Omega rifle. Could this be the reason why I can't reload my omega after the first shot? Or at least part of the problem.
Has anyone tried to open up the ignition hole on the Omega breach plug to see if it helps? It makes some sense to me that the smaller hole could be part of the problem. T / C told me that they think there would be too much "blow back" If the ignition hole was as large as the Knights breach plug, But that does not seem right to me as I do not get any blow back from my Knight Bighorn rifle.
I have talked to T/C about it but they don't want to admit there is a problem with their gun - But they did tell me that they just made available a new THINNER sabot that will help with the problem that they do not think exists.
I know that the T/C barrels are supposed to be tighter than the Knight rifle barrels but I don't think that would produce the problems that are being experienced by many of the Omega shooters out there.
What do you think???

str8shooter48 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 26, 2004, 01:03:53 PM »

wolfrack your not trying to load Hornady SST's or T/C Shockwaves are you? If you are theres nothing wrong with your gun, its the damn sabots they use with their bullets. I have an Encore and my two brothers have Omegas. We all have problems loading them. A harvester sabot in place of the ones that come with the bullets seem to load considerably easier.

You said you talked to T/C and they said they were coming out with a thinner sabot. Its about time. I pretty much given up on their bullets I'll stick with the Precision QT40's for now.

Two Bears · « **Reply #2 on:** December 26, 2004, 01:30:12 PM »

str8shooter48,
I use Hornady 300 gr XTP bullets with a black Harvester sabot, as the Harvester sabot is the thinnest one that I could find.
I wish Hornady would make a .45 cal XTP 300gr that was a little thinner just for muzzeloader use. I would believe that they would sell well for them since muzzeloaders have become more popular in recent years.
What are the specs for the Precision QT 40's? Maybe I need to just find a different bullet combination that will work better in this Omega. I really like the XTP 300 gr bullet as they group so well and are devestating on deer.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #3 on:** December 26, 2004, 06:21:42 PM »

Quote from: wolftrack

I have read I think all of the threads about the crud rings and trouble with loading the Omega rifle after it has been shot once. And the 25 acp conversion that is available (which I will probably get ) but has anybody looked at the size of the hole in the breach plug? It is so small so could the size of the hole be part of the problem? What I am getting at is that I have a Knight Bighorn 50 cal that I can and do shoot sometimes for hours at a time and not have to swab between shots or disassemble the rifle and clean it just to get another shot off I don't get a "crud ring" either but if you compare the two breach plugs side by side the hole on the Knight's breach plug is what looks to be twice as large as the one from the Omega rifle. Could this be the reason why I can't reload my omega after the first shot? Or at least part of the problem.
Has anyone tried to open up the ignition hole on the Omega breach plug to see if it helps? It makes some sense to me that the smaller hole could be part of the problem. T / C told me that they think there would be too much "blow back" If the ignition hole was as large as the Knights breach plug, But that does not seem right to me as I do not get any blow back from my Knight Bighorn rifle.
I have talked to T/C about it but they don't want to admit there is a problem with their gun - But they did tell me that they just made available a new THINNER sabot that will help with the problem that they do not think exists.
I know that the T/C barrels are supposed to be tighter than the Knight rifle barrels but I don't think that would produce the problems that are being experienced by many of the Omega shooters out there.
What do you think???

This is the first time I have seen this comparison made. I guess it is possible that the difference in ignition path could make a difference in how the charge ignites. I have an Omega that I have tried everything to shoot 777 powder and the .25ACP conversion is the best but not a complete fix. I also have all three T/C breechplugs(flat,slight concave, full concave). With loose powder the full concave is slightly better so the ignition path is somewhat effective. If I had another breechplug to try I guess I would consider opening it up but would like to have a comparison plug to try to duplicate the flame path. Could you measure the diameter of the Knight plug? Try various drills to see what just passes through.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #4 on:** December 27, 2004, 01:13:18 AM »

Quote from: wolftrack

What I am getting at is that I have a Knight Bighorn 50 cal that I can and do shoot sometimes for hours at a time and not have to swab between shots or disassemble the rifle and clean it just to get another shot off I don't get a "crud ring" either but if you compare the two breach plugs side by side the hole on the Knight's breach plug is what looks to be twice as large as the one from the Omega rifle. Could this be the reason why I can't reload my omega after the first shot? Or at least part of the problem.

A bigger flashole actually has the opposite effect. More fire gets to the powder causing it to burn faster which is what causes the crud ring. I noticed a drop in the crud ring when I replaced a breechplug in my Knight Extreme earlier this year. The diameter difference was big enough to see with the naked eye. That breachplug had around 500 shots through it.

Another thing, which ignition system do you have in your Bighorn? #11, musket cap, 209, or 209 with the full plastic jacket will all produce different crud levels in the same rifle.

Two Bears · « **Reply #5 on:** December 27, 2004, 05:53:22 AM »

Kieth Lewis,
I will have the two breach plugs measured today on my way to work and I will post the measurments late tonight after work ( I work 2nd shift )

quote="Keith Lewis"]

Quote from: wolftrack

I have read I think all of the threads about the crud rings and trouble with loading the Omega rifle after it has been shot once. And the 25 acp conversion that is available (which I will probably get ) but has anybody looked at the size of the hole in the breach plug? It is so small so could the size of the hole be part of the problem? What I am getting at is that I have a Knight Bighorn 50 cal that I can and do shoot sometimes for hours at a time and not have to swab between shots or disassemble the rifle and clean it just to get another shot off I don't get a "crud ring" either but if you compare the two breach plugs side by side the hole on the Knight's breach plug is what looks to be twice as large as the one from the Omega rifle. Could this be the reason why I can't reload my omega after the first shot? Or at least part of the problem.
Has anyone tried to open up the ignition hole on the Omega breach plug to see if it helps? It makes some sense to me that the smaller hole could be part of the problem. T / C told me that they think there would be too much "blow back" If the ignition hole was as large as the Knights breach plug, But that does not seem right to me as I do not get any blow back from my Knight Bighorn rifle.
I have talked to T/C about it but they don't want to admit there is a problem with their gun - But they did tell me that they just made available a new THINNER sabot that will help with the problem that they do not think exists.
I know that the T/C barrels are supposed to be tighter than the Knight rifle barrels but I don't think that would produce the problems that are being experienced by many of the Omega shooters out there.
What do you think???

This is the first time I have seen this comparison made. I guess it is possible that the difference in ignition path could make a difference in how the charge ignites. I have an Omega that I have tried everything to shoot 777 powder and the .25ACP conversion is the best but not a complete fix. I also have all three T/C breechplugs(flat,slight concave, full concave). With loose powder the full concave is slightly better so the ignition path is somewhat effective. If I had another breechplug to try I guess I would consider opening it up but would like to have a comparison plug to try to duplicate the flame path. Could you measure the diameter of the Knight plug? Try various drills to see what just passes through.[/quote]

Two Bears · « **Reply #6 on:** December 27, 2004, 06:03:56 AM »

Quote from: Wolfhound

Quote from: wolftrack
What I am getting at is that I have a Knight Bighorn 50 cal that I can and do shoot sometimes for hours at a time and not have to swab between shots or disassemble the rifle and clean it just to get another shot off I don't get a "crud ring" either but if you compare the two breach plugs side by side the hole on the Knight's breach plug is what looks to be twice as large as the one from the Omega rifle. Could this be the reason why I can't reload my omega after the first shot? Or at least part of the problem.

A bigger flashole actually has the opposite effect. More fire gets to the powder causing it to burn faster which is what causes the crud ring. I noticed a drop in the crud ring when I replaced a breechplug in my Knight Extreme earlier this year. The diameter difference was big enough to see with the naked eye. That breachplug had around 500 shots through it.

Another thing, which ignition system do you have in your Bighorn? #11, musket cap, 209, or 209 with the full plastic jacket will all produce different crud levels in the same rifle.

Wolfhound,
I use the 209 primer ignition in my Bighorn.
I don't notice a crud ring in the bighorn after shooting it with either 777 or pyrodex pellets.

str8shooter48 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 27, 2004, 07:52:51 AM »

Quote from: wolftrack

str8shooter48,
I use Hornady 300 gr XTP bullets with a black Harvester sabot, as the Harvester sabot is the thinnest one that I could find.
I wish Hornady would make a .45 cal XTP 300gr that was a little thinner just for muzzeloader use. I would believe that they would sell well for them since muzzeloaders have become more popular in recent years.
What are the specs for the Precision QT 40's? Maybe I need to just find a different bullet combination that will work better in this Omega. I really like the XTP 300 gr bullet as they group so well and are devestating on deer.

I'm shooting the QT40 235gr bullet. Its .40cal all lead bullet with a polymer tip with a fairly heavy but easy loading sabot.

This is the same bullet Cabelas sells as the extended range.

check out the website for Precision Rifle Bullet.

www.prbullet.com

Wolfhound · « **Reply #8 on:** December 27, 2004, 08:26:10 AM »

Quote from: wolftrack

Wolfhound,
I use the 209 primer ignition in my Bighorn.
I don't notice a crud ring in the bighorn after shooting it with either 777 or pyrodex pellets.

Well I was getting a crud ring with my older plug in My Extreme. I'm not doing so with the new plug yet. I've noticed that Knights generally have cooler breach plugs than Thompson's. I've only gotten minor crud in the Knight's.

AndyHass · « **Reply #9 on:** December 27, 2004, 02:41:08 PM »

A bigger diameter hole will cause more blowback. In a Knight a lot of this is probably blocked by the Disc. I would think it might cause problems in an Omega.
I would guess the problem has to do with the shape of the breech plug. The ACP conversion fixes it fine for me, I used to have to swab Pyrodex out of my other inline so it's no worse.

S.B. · « **Reply #10 on:** December 27, 2004, 04:26:37 PM »

Could someone get me up to speed here. I'm in the process of buying an Omega and what sabot is best to use in this rifle? Please tell me the good the bad and the ugly part of this equation? I don't know that I'll switch to triple 7, probably stay with Pyrotec. Any knowledge I should have here?

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #11 on:** December 27, 2004, 04:59:13 PM »

Quote from: S.B.

Could someone get me up to speed here. I'm in the process of buying an Omega and what sabot is best to use in this rifle? Please tell me the good the bad and the ugly part of this equation? I don't know that I'll switch to triple 7, probably stay with Pyrotec. Any knowledge I should have here?

I have a stainless .50 Omega and have been through the mill with powders bullets sabots primers, conversion primers etc. Here is what I recommend to save you some time and a fair amount of money. Try to find Black Mag3 powder. This powder alone will fix most of the problems you may run into. Tripple Seven is the worst powder in my rifle. Pyrodex is OK but pretty dirty. American Pioneer is my second choice with Pyrodex running a distant third. Bullet/sabot combinations are difficult to predict as they keep changing the thickness of the sabots. Right now I can shoot Hornady 300gr. bullets in Harvester short sabots. Powerbelts are also easy to deal with but shoot best at 100gr. loads or less. I shot my elk with 90gr. of Black Mag3 and a 300gr. bullet and shot completely through the chest cavity of a 475lb.(estimated weight) cow elk at about 100 yards or slightly less. Try to use the coolest primer CCI, or Winchester do not use Federals. My rifle has been converted to the .25ACP breechplug and I like it but if you stay with Black Mag3 powder it is not necessary to shoot well. If you try 777 you will need the conversion and a lot of luck too. Mine just barely will shoot 777 even with the conversion and a second shot is impossible without a swab between shots and sometimes two swabs. I shoot loose powder and do not use pellets. I shot a few and didn't see enough value to cover the expense. Black Mag3 does not come in pellets.

S.B. · « **Reply #12 on:** December 27, 2004, 05:17:57 PM »

Keith, thanks for the repy, I've never even heard of the Black Mag 3 powder before, but if I can find some I'll try it. My buddy has been through the mill with his Knight Wolverine and pellets. I hope I learned something from his experience. The new gun will be used for whitetail. So, 100gr powder charges should be plenty for this. My main reason for changing guns is to get the 209 primer system. My thoughts on muzzle loader is, it's another 3 days in the deer woods, and as you know, any bad day in the woods is better than a good day at work. thanks again. Steve

Wolfhound · « **Reply #13 on:** December 28, 2004, 01:26:13 AM »

Quote from: Keith Lewis

Black Mag3 does not come in pellets.

Actually I have a buddy with Black Mag 3 pellets. He's got a couple of jugs that are solid.

I'd hate to see the gun that could burn em. :wink:

Cuz · « **Reply #14 on:** December 28, 2004, 05:08:16 AM »

Are you certain it is BlackMag' 3?? Maybe be BM2?? BM2 is no longer available.

My BlackMag' 3 comes to me in a plastic container 3/4x4x4, black with a red cap. I have seen Pyrodex in round containers but not BlackMag' 3, yet anyway.

Once you use the BlackMag' 3, correctly, you will use it as your primary source of propellent in all your BP rifle. Or, at least, I do in my Omega .50 and I have none of the problems confronted by users of 777 or Pyrodex.

My 2 cents worth. Cuz :grin:

S.B. · « **Reply #15 on:** December 28, 2004, 06:24:38 AM »

Cuz, are you sure that's the size, 3/4"x4"x4"? Sounds small for a pound of powder. And the name on the container is "Black Mag' 3"? What primer system are you using with this stuff, 209?

AndyHass · « **Reply #16 on:** December 28, 2004, 06:52:08 AM »

The sabot problems appear to be specific to people with barrels on the tight end. I still have the belief that ML barrels are not cut to the same tolerances as a lot of centerfire barrels.
My Omega has not had problems with ANY sabots going down unduly hard, including most of those people have reported problems with. Luck of the draw I guess....

Wolfhound · « **Reply #17 on:** December 28, 2004, 07:52:43 AM »

Quote from: Cuz

Are you certain it is BlackMag' 3??

Bottle, jug, whatever you want to call it. It's BM3 and solid. Probably just a bad batch.

Two Bears · « **Reply #18 on:** December 28, 2004, 08:05:52 PM »

Quote from: Keith Lewis

Quote from: wolftrack
I have read I think all of the threads about the crud rings and trouble with loading the Omega rifle after it has been shot once. And the 25 acp conversion that is available (which I will probably get ) but has anybody looked at the size of the hole in the breach plug? It is so small so could the size of the hole be part of the problem? What I am getting at is that I have a Knight Bighorn 50 cal that I can and do shoot sometimes for hours at a time and not have to swab between shots or disassemble the rifle and clean it just to get another shot off I don't get a "crud ring" either but if you compare the two breach plugs side by side the hole on the Knight's breach plug is what looks to be twice as large as the one from the Omega rifle. Could this be the reason why I can't reload my omega after the first shot? Or at least part of the problem.
Has anyone tried to open up the ignition hole on the Omega breach plug to see if it helps? It makes some sense to me that the smaller hole could be part of the problem. T / C told me that they think there would be too much "blow back" If the ignition hole was as large as the Knights breach plug, But that does not seem right to me as I do not get any blow back from my Knight Bighorn rifle.
I have talked to T/C about it but they don't want to admit there is a problem with their gun - But they did tell me that they just made available a new THINNER sabot that will help with the problem that they do not think exists.
I know that the T/C barrels are supposed to be tighter than the Knight rifle barrels but I don't think that would produce the problems that are being experienced by many of the Omega shooters out there.
What do you think???

This is the first time I have seen this comparison made. I guess it is possible that the difference in ignition path could make a difference in how the charge ignites. I have an Omega that I have tried everything to shoot 777 powder and the .25ACP conversion is the best but not a complete fix. I also have all three T/C breechplugs(flat,slight concave, full concave). With loose powder the full concave is slightly better so the ignition path is somewhat effective. If I had another breechplug to try I guess I would consider opening it up but would like to have a comparison plug to try to duplicate the flame path. Could you measure the diameter of the Knight plug? Try various drills to see what just passes through.

Kieth
The machine shop told me that the Knight bighorn breach plug is a #65 drill hole and it measures .035 and the Omega is around .026-.028 he could not get exact with the omega breach plug.
If you have one drilled out to the Knights size let us know what your results were.

Cuz · « **Reply #19 on:** December 29, 2004, 04:40:01 AM »

S.B. the container maybe a 'bit' larger (I will measure it tonight) but is close. I use CCI 209 primer, 80 gr BM3 and Shockwave 200 gr. I have been experimenting with various sabots and I believe I will be using the Harvestor sabots on my bullets next season.

Wolfhound, Yelp, is BlackMag' 3 for certain and I LUV it in my Omega. My point was that my powder came in a flat container and not in a round one.

I had no trouble with the Shockwave this past season but I am always looking for a better load. I use a Super RAT to load the sabots and I have found that it helps more than another device I have used. RAT is a rotating jag tip for the ramrod made by Precision Rifle and I will not load without it, now. But, I am convinced that the exchange of the current sabot with Harvestor sabots will improve loading and hopefully the down range effect as well.

I luv this sport and the main reason is the variables possible from gun to gun. What my Omega likes maybe is different than what your Omega likes. But, all are still the same basic gun. Amazing.

Cuz :grin:

Cuz · « **Reply #20 on:** December 30, 2004, 09:50:16 AM »

My BlackMag' 3 container measures. . . 1.8" deep, 4.0" wide, 4.8" high and contains one pound. And, yes, is black with a red cap.
For inquiring minds to know.

Cuz

S.B. · « **Reply #21 on:** December 30, 2004, 10:02:49 AM »

Thankyou, sir. I appreciate the help.
Steve

Busta · « **Reply #22 on:** December 30, 2004, 10:12:44 AM »

S.B.,

This link should keep you busy for awhile. :grin:

http://www.magkor.com/index.html

S.B. · « **Reply #23 on:** December 30, 2004, 11:06:55 AM »

Thanks. I needed that.