38/55 loads

[Woodbutcher]

Hey, could someone answer Montana 38/55?
I'm expectin a surprise from my family, an NEF in 38/55
 Specifically, cast and BP, for target work, and then maybe PP and smokeless for deer. At least thats what I get from the books by Paul Matthews.
 Hey Montana:
 Matthews writes in his book, The Paper Jacket, that a PP needs a grease cookie when used with BP, but not when smokeless is used. Sounds like a natural for hunting. He also speaks well of Marlin rifling when using lead. Keep in mind, my experience so far is readin, but ya gotta start somewhere.
 Inter-library loan is a great system. The Library Ladies ain't never seen book subjects that I ask for. They had a hard time with the above title, thought it was a novel.
                                                                        Woodbutcher

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Woodbutcher,

I got that very same book through interlibrary loan too!  Well, actually my wife picked it up for me.  She said she put it as a challenge to the librarian, and said, "I doubt you can find this book, but my husband ..."  The librarian's eyes just narrowed and lips pursed.  And in a short time the book was here!

[Montana 38-55]

:-) Hi Woodbutcher,  Paul Matthews' book is the best reference I have found for paper patching and if anyone has a better one please let me know.  I have found one thing that doesn't work in my Marlin 38-55 and that is, Matthews says to size your bullets smaller than your bore dia. and let the black powder bump it up to fill the groves.  I tried that and my groups were 12" or better at 100 yards so I shot them at groove dia. the groups tightened up less then half that.  My bullets are flat base and what Matthews mostly used were cup base, maybe that's the reason why.  Try what Matthews says first then experiment if it doesn't work.  

I shoot 48 grs. FFg behind a 200 gr. paper patched bullet and grease cookie.  Finding out how much grease cookie and what type of grease has been my problem.  I'll let you know if I get it worked out.  No one seems to have an answer or at least willing to share it.

[45 2.1]

Sounds to me like your bullet metal is too hard for what your trying. You would have better luck with a heavier bullet made out of a very soft alloy.

[JBMauser]

"Matthews writes in his book, The Paper Jacket, that a PP needs a grease cookie when used with BP, but not when smokeless is used."

I recall that Matthews demanded a greese cookie to keep the fouling soft.  If you were building BP hunting ammo I don't think you would need to add that cookie unless you are shooting at doves.  I would think you could put three rounds through any BP rifle before fouling woud upset your point of impact.  after 5 rounds the group may open up but still be covered by a hand at 100yds.

Target shooting to me is 20 to 40 rounds and would require a greese cookie or a swabing every 5 or so rounds. I could see 3 to 5 rounds for a days hunt.  just lube the paper and stuff it in.  FWIW  JB

[Montana 38-55]

I shoot 200 and 230 gr. paper patch bullets of pure lead. The 230 gr. I use in smokeless loads and the 200 gr. in black powder loads.  I have not had any success keeping the groups small without some kind of grease cookie.  My Marlin CB holds 7 rounds and I know that you need only one but "Bad Luck" seems to be my middle name when it comes to hunting.  So I want to know that the 7th bullet is going to hit in the same spot as the first.

[45 2.1]

Explain your patching and loading procedure with bullet and patched diameters.

[Montana 38-55]

The groove dia. of my 38-55 Marlin is 0.380 + or - 0.001 and (I believe that it is 0.381) the bore is 0.374 + or - 0.001.  I cast my 230 gr. and 200 gr. bullets from Magma Engineering molds and size them down to 0.375. Then they are patched with two wraps of 9# paper the excess paper is twisted into a tail which is cut off after the patch dries.  The paper patch brings the bullet dia. back up to 0.382 - 0.383.  The bullets are seated in a unsized or sized and expanded (0.379) case then given a heavy roll crimp.  The great thing about Magma bullets is that the bullet nose is 0.370 ahead of the crimp groove and the body is 0.382 behind.  The patch is lined up with the leading edge of the crimp groove and shrinks into the groove.  When loaded the patch is under the crimp and protected while functioning through the rifle's action.

My smokeless loads are 22 grs. AA XMP-5744 that is dumped into the case without wads or fillers.

My black powder loads are 48 grs. dropped through a 36" tube then compressed to allow a wax paper wad, 6 grs. of grease cookie, wax paper wad, 0.030 cardboard wad behind the bullet seated to the crimping groove.

[45 2.1]

Your doing things pretty well except for one IMPORTANT thing. The patched bullet must engrave slightly on the rifling lead, NOT have to jump to get to it! That undersize nose (which is too long for what your doing) is letting your bullet tip before it gets engraved or bumped up, thus giving you poor results. Try patching the nose past the ogive also and seeing if you can get the patch marked by the rifling. You definitely want some full sized patched diameter outside of the case to do this. I suspect that the Magma bullet dimensions are the cause of the poor results. I'm using the Saeco tapered 255 gr. sized .372" in a Custom LEE sizer and patching it up and it works fine.

[fffffg]

almost any bullet lube from your local gun supply store should work for grease cookie center..  for accuracy weigh cases, powder, bullets.  trim cases every time you reload. with black powder the amount of powder   used will vary compression of that powder which is very important.. vary amount of powder and compression, and bullet lenght, types of powder, crimps, types of bullet, primers, neck expansion, etc.. if using black a blow tubve will soften fouling for the next shot..  a larger expander will probably help keep from under sizing  in the bullet , and stop increaseing bullet hold pressure from getting too high..  buffalow bullets has new step expanders for  different expansion amounts  of case which also  negate the need for crimp and seems to be the way long range shooters are going. they are using aobut .002 smaller expander than bullet diameter.    these are with cast bullets tho 20-1, 30-1... ..  not paper patched..  it takes alot of dedication to get this type of loads to work. black powder is not in the front and running industry and knowledge is sparse..  good luck dave

[Woodbutcher]

You guys are the greatest! Thank you.     Woodbutcher