Author Topic: terrible groups with new powder (Read 1356 times)

22savage · « **on:** December 05, 2004, 06:10:58 PM »

hey guys
recently decided to try a new powder in my 22-250, H-380 to be exact, to see if i could get acceptable accuracy and a hundred fps increase over my current load, 34.7g of IMR-4064.
my 4064 load consistantly groups <.75" my best load with H-380 went about 4", with some loads going to 6", at 100 yards
i thought my barrel might be terribly fouled, so i shot a load of 4064, and as always, about .75"
My question is, could just changing the powder cause this much of an incrase in group size, or did i miss someting when i loaded this batch of ammo

any thoughts would be appreciated

travis

ricciardelli · « **Reply #1 on:** December 05, 2004, 08:03:55 PM »

So.......you loaded one load with H-380, and for your effort obtained lousy groups.

Duh...and then you want to know if changing powder will make that kind of a difference?

You don't really want to know my thoughts!

KYsquirrelsniper · « **Reply #2 on:** December 05, 2004, 09:11:17 PM »

If you were using standard primers and had some verticle stringing, try some magnum primers. Of course you'll need to drop the charge a bit and work back up if you make a switch to mag primers.

If that's not the problem, I'd say you just need to go back to the 4064.

Willyp · « **Reply #3 on:** December 05, 2004, 10:57:15 PM »

I have tried different powders in my 22-250,over the years,and keep going back to the 4064. 380 was one of the worse i tried,for grouping.

ricciardelli · « **Reply #4 on:** December 05, 2004, 11:44:07 PM »

5-shots at 200-yards.
Firearm: Ruger 77V in .22-250 Remington
Optics: Leupold 4x12AO Vari-X III optics
Case: Remington
Primer: Remington 9-1/2
Powder: 38.4 grains of H-380
Bullet: Sierra 52 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail
Velocity: 3702 FPS @ 15' from muzzle

22savage · « **Reply #5 on:** December 06, 2004, 03:45:32 AM »

ricciardelli, i loaded more than one load
i started at the minimum and worked up to max in .5 increments. i expected to have to do some work to get a sensible group, but 4-6inches seems like a lot to me, even for starting loads. Should also add that these loads were neck sized only. Also seated just off the lands.
has anyone else had groups open up like this with H-380, or should i go and try the whole thing over again?

travis

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #6 on:** December 06, 2004, 04:01:26 AM »

I'm sitting here scratching my head on this one???

Yes, different powders can, and do make small differences in group size, but going from .75" to 4"-5" groups is something other than the powder. You could shoot 5 rounds, with 5 different powders as long as the velocities were similar, and expect the group to be better than that!

H-380 in my opinion is one of the better powders you can load in the 22-250. I'm not sure what happened there, but I believe I'd be double checking some things myself.

Let us know what you find out. You've really got me curious.

ricciardelli · « **Reply #7 on:** December 06, 2004, 06:21:57 AM »

Quote from: 22savage

ricciardelli, i loaded more than one load
i started at the minimum and worked up to max in .5 increments. i expected to have to do some work to get a sensible group, but 4-6inches seems like a lot to me, even for starting loads. Should also add that these loads were neck sized only. Also seated just off the lands.
has anyone else had groups open up like this with H-380, or should i go and try the whole thing over again?

travis

Sorry if I misunderstood your original post, since I read it as you had only tried one load of H-380.

As for the H-380 opening your groups from 0.75" to 6.0", I have never experienced any powder (suitable for the caliber and bullet weight) doing that.

Did you run the H-380 loads through a chrony?

Are you sure that your scale or powder measure was set correctly?

22savage · « **Reply #8 on:** December 06, 2004, 10:27:34 AM »

i've decided to load somemore and give it another try. would really like to find a good load with h-380 because it meters so much better than 4064. Also gave my barrel a good scrubbing, there was some fouling, but nothing spectacular. Are some loads more sensitive to fouling than others? I'm gonna give it another try, this time with a nice, clean barrel to see if that makes a difference. As for shooting through a chrony, i don't have one,(yet), sounds like a good christmas prestent, hey? i'll post to let ya know how it turns out this time, although it may be a week or so before i get back to the range, the way the wheather has been here lately, blowing a gale every day.

thanks for the replies

travis

swecology · « **Reply #9 on:** December 06, 2004, 12:14:31 PM »

22savage:

Have you had any work done to your gun?

Check all of the bedding screws that attach the stock to the action, and check your scope mounts too.

Everytime I've had THAT lousy of a day at the range, I've been able to trace it back to these factors, except once...

I tried a load of Speer 120 gr. .25-06 over RL 22 and got 3" groups, up from my typical of .75" with the Ruger in .25-06. That gun just did not like that bullet!

Good luck.

Duffy · « **Reply #10 on:** December 06, 2004, 11:38:01 PM »

Just for the heck of it try seating the bullet farther away from the lands, say about .030 and see if that does anything. Different primer may help too.

skb2706 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 07, 2004, 04:02:54 AM »

...unless I missed it I didn't see what bullet you were using but 34.7 grains of H380 seems awfully low for a 22-250. My standard pd load for 50 gr. v maxs and H380 runs much closer to 40 gr. In any case I would suspect many things before I would try to chase down problems with the powder. For me H380 has always been a very easy powder to work with and 'first choice' for volume loads in my 22-250.

Duffy · « **Reply #12 on:** December 07, 2004, 06:01:05 AM »

I thought that's how Hodgdon came up with the name for it, 38.0 grains behind a 55g bullet in a 22-250.

skb2706 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 07, 2004, 07:44:47 AM »

yep - and with that thought I let Bruce Hodgdon do the ground work for me. Many a prairie dog has met their maker wishing ol' Bruce would have been wrong.

22savage · « **Reply #14 on:** December 07, 2004, 05:13:19 PM »

34.7 grains was of 4064, not h-380
duffy, i think i will try like you said, seating further off the lands, to see if that makes a difference,
i'll keep ya all posted

travis

skb2706 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 08, 2004, 02:55:36 AM »

I would check runout on those loads.

22savage · « **Reply #16 on:** December 08, 2004, 07:39:19 AM »

skb2706, do i need special equipment to check for runout or is there a way i can use just plain old vernier calipers?

thanks for the replies guys

travis

skb2706 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 08, 2004, 08:01:05 AM »

What you are looking for is the bullet to be true and straight with the case. There are some special tools available but for the most part even rolling loaded ammo on a flat clean surface should show any severe misalignment. If the ammo is true the bullet will not wobble around as the case is rolling. I use a v-block and a simple dial indicator that works just like the RCBS model....less $$.
I have a 22-250 Savage 110 that my son and I have just about shot out. The chamber in it allows me to seat bullets way out before I ever get to the lands. So far out that if I load this way the bullet isn't in the neck far enough to hold a 50 Vmax straight....I seat them down til they are.

Kivaari · « **Reply #18 on:** December 11, 2004, 08:59:59 AM »

Well , I've never loaded for that round but it seems that 4064 is the ticket.

Just a thought.....you might want to try Varget. It is short grained, ambient temperature insensitive, has a burn rate very similar to 4064 and is a double based powder. Being double based it will have more energy; maybe that's the solution....

wild willy · « **Reply #19 on:** December 11, 2004, 01:28:45 PM »

380 is supposed to be one of the best powders for a 22-250 tried a pound 15 or 20 years ago couln't get it to work another pound about 3 years ago did't work that time either wish it would sure meters nice

22savage · « **Reply #20 on:** December 17, 2004, 11:45:36 AM »

someone mentioned that varget was more temperature insensitifve than 4064, so i was wondering, how temperature sensitive is 4064? i recently went out shooting, only to find my rifle, which was previously sighted 1.5 inches high at a hundred, to be about 9 inches low, but still grouping great. so i adusted it back to 1.5 inches high and it remained that way until yesterday. i went out and instead of being 1.5 inches high, it was about 12 inches high. then i started thinking. i always keep my ammo in the house(room temp), except for the day when she was 9 inches low, that day the ammo was left in the car for a couple of days(temp about
-5 Celcius) and yesterday the ammo again come from my house. So it seems to me that the temperature change from room temperature to -5 celcius caused about a 10 inch change in poi. Could i get around this by using magnum primers for those cold days?

thanks

travis

Duffy · « **Reply #21 on:** December 17, 2004, 04:36:54 PM »

I keep mine in an inside vest pocket or some where warm on your bod. Just did a little test with the 454 and H110 the other day. The rounds left outside at 30 deg F were on average 143 fps slower than the ones kept at 70F. Mag primers may help but at what temp do you quit using them? Espessially if your at or near max load to begin with. Plus if you have fired several rounds the chamber will be warm and heat up the round also. So many variables, so little time. Somewhere I just saw a temp chart on a test with Varget and 4064, I'll see if I can find it.

Duffy · « **Reply #22 on:** December 18, 2004, 07:07:02 AM »

Found the test in the front of Hodgdons handbook. Was tested in a 308, temps were from 0-125 deg.

Varget- 8 fps diff
Win 748- 114
RL 15- 50
N 140- 50
IMR 4064 50
AA2520 63

Now this was done by Hodgdon so take it for what it's worth but in my 223 it does seem to be alot more tolerable of temp than the ball powders like H335. There was a more complete test on this where they gave mid temp vel/pressures and it seems to me they varied more or there was more of a swing in the middle. I don't think 50 fps would/should throw you as far off as you were though. I know a cold bbl will drop/raise things a couple of inches though but as it warms up things usually come back.

22savage · « **Reply #23 on:** December 18, 2004, 05:15:58 PM »

thanks for the replies guys. not quite sure what is causing it but i do know that when they are kept warm they work great, so i guess i'll just keep them in my inside coat pocket like duffy said. when i go out hunting it ain't like i am going to be shooting alot anyway, so a dozen or so rounds in the coat pocket will be plenty. thanks for all your help guys

travis

gwindrider1 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 02, 2005, 09:07:39 AM »

22Savage,

Sure sounds like you have something going on other than the powder. As others here have said, H380 is one of the best powders in .22-250.

I have gotten the best results (accuracy and velocity) with Reloader 15 in my .22-250. If you try another powder give it a try.

I use 38.5 grns. with 50 grn. Nosler BT's, and CCI BR primers. Tack driver load!

Good luck with that thing! :wink:

arky65 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 02, 2005, 05:41:53 PM »

i'm getting 1/2 groups with 34 grns of imr3031 and 52grn mk out of my win m70 stealth. this is max load and i'm seating the bullets .003 off the lands. it shows slight sign of pressure. i think when i work the trigger over i will get at least another .10 off the group. just something to think about.
btw h380 did not work very well for this rifle either. never got better than 1" with h380.

arky65

22savage · « **Reply #26 on:** January 04, 2005, 06:55:32 PM »

hey guys,
just removed my scope and done all the screws with lock tite. got her sited in again with 4064 and is grouping good. as soon as i get back to the range i will try 380 again. might of been the scope, not sure. i am difinitely going to try it again, must of messed something up the first time i loaded 380 or something.

keep you posted

travis

44dude · « **Reply #27 on:** January 04, 2005, 09:05:36 PM »

22 Savage
Had the similar experience to you. The 22-250 was a new cartridge to me, and for some reason i had a devil of a time getting it to shoot. Almost gave up. I worked up h380, tried several types and weights of bullets, seating depths etc etc. Best groups at 100yds were just under 1". Tried other powders and combo's....no good, until i tried IMR4064 @34.2grn 25thou off lands with hornady 52grhpbt. Groups @ 4/10ths. Also win760 powder at max loads, same bullet and seat depth, similar groups.
After experimenting with all the combo's, one of the most important things i found was the need for case neck tension on the bullet. If i used the Lee neck collet sizer, i lost accuracy. Full length sizing was better and gave me more neck tension, and far better accuracy.