45/70 or 500 S&W ?

[Buckeye]

I'm aim'in to get one of these soon ,I already have a Marlin GG in 45/70 ,and I handload for it.

What would be the advantages of a 500 S&W ? over the Great 45/70 Gov.

[gwhilikerz]

500 S&W advantage over the 45-70? er, NONE that I can see.

[quickdtoo]

The 45-70 has the advantage, better BC, and more room for hot loads, from what I have read about the 500 S&W, it's already near max load in it's factory form.

[Leftoverdj]

Just something new to try and a lot of disadvantages.  The .45-70 ain't gonna go away and the .50 S&W just might. Great selection of ammo and components for the .45-70 and mighty little for the .50.

[Varminter]

the only advantage of the 500 SHORT & WEAK is bragging rights. the 45-70 has it beat all the way around

[single shot shooter]

You  boys that say the 45-70 has the 500 S&W beat all the way around need to read your ballistics charts. As soon as a few rifles are chambered for the 500 S&W more components will become available and i belive the 500 S&W will then take off. I'm a fan of the 45-70 but you have to give credit where credit is due. As soon as the 500's are on the market in rifle form i'll be tryin one. The only disadvantage i can see at this point is the cost of the 500 ammo. But like i said as soon as the cartridge becomes popular so will the components and reloading data. I wouldnt pass judgement on this cartridge till' its tried.

[quickdtoo]

We're not just saying it, it's a fact, we have discussed the topic in the past. The 500 S&W is near max loaded from the factory where it is near .45-70 levels, but the .45-70 has lots of room for much hotter loads, even in the H&R rifles. Couple that with the much better BC of .458 bullets and the 500S&W is left in the dust, literally. The only forte the 500 S&W has is it's available in a big handgun, once you put it in a rifle configuration, it's just another also ran. The 500S&W is a great handgun round but in a rifle it's somewhat of a novelty. Now, if the case was bigger, that would be a different matter, the .50 Alaskan is an impressive round, but the 500S&W is no .50 Alaskan by a long shot. There's not really anything more to say than what's already been discussed in the last .45-70 vs 500S&W thread.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=49009

[Buckeye]

Americas Poor mans Express Round wins again ! From Whitetail to Cape ....

[Cottonwood]

I favor Single Shot Rifles

If there was a 500 S&W Single Shot Rifle and a 45-70 of the same sitting side by side, I would pick the 45-70 hands down.

Besides, I don't think the 500 S&W would do very good as a Black Powder Cartridge Load  :-D

[single shot shooter]

do the math, some men you just cant reach.

[Cottonwood]

do the math, some men you just cant reach.

single shot shooter can I use a 500 gr soft cast bullet in one of those 500 S&W's... can it be shot at extremely long range say out to 1,000 yards with any kind of accuracy?  Maybe with proper sights but I think the bullet that it is shooting would be too light for the job since a 500-gr is about the bare bones minimum you want to use for long range shooting in these Big Bores.  Basicly what I am saying is that the 500-gr does not serve a purpose for me.

I'm not talking hunting now, I'm speaking of long range target shooting like is done with the 45-70, 45-90, 45-100 and the 45-110 which use even heavier bullets.

I know what your saying, but the math you say is what?  Are we talking same grain bullets per load?

I guess its a matter of opinion.... your opinion is that you may want a 500 S&W, many of us don't share that opinion.

[De41mag]

Com'on fellas;

Go easy on each other. If we did not have different calibers, what fun would it be!
Do you think a man makes a wrong decision if he choses a 30-30 barrel over a 308 barrel.
Heck I just like shooting pistol cartridges out of rifles, just to see what kind of accuracy I can milk out of that short stubby round. Especially at 100yds.
So we all have favorites.
Could we all do this much talking if everyone had just a 30-06 Handi?
Good shooting to all.  :grin:

Dennis  

[quickdtoo]

i wasnt sayin the .500 is a better cartridge, just it would be a better cartridge for what i'm going to use it for.

SSS, have you forgot everything from the last discussion? You can't compare the milktoast trapdoor .45-70 loads with the S&W, that's apples and oranges. :roll: Even the factory PMC 350gr .45-70 loads(3167ME) have almost as much energy at 100yd(2187) as the 500S&W has at the muzzle.

http://www.pmcammo.com/rifle_ballistics.php

And the Buffalo Bore ammo is way over the top...

430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)

405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)

350 gr. J.F.N. (2150 fps / M.E. 3427 ft. lbs.)

500 gr. FMJFN (1625 fps /M.E. 2931 ft. lbs.)

[Longcruise]

The only forte the 500 S&W has is it's available in a big handgun

Heck, Quick, I think you are being overgenerous at that! :grin:

When all things are considered, eg., case capacity bullet weight, BC, sectional density, conventional handguns begin to lose effectiveness when calibers exceed .45.  .475 at the most, IMO.

Seyfried did a lot of killing with handguns in Africa in .45, .475 and .50 caliber.  In the end he pretty much wrote the .50 off given the poor sectional density and penetration of the .50 bullets in typical wheelgun bullet lengths.

IMO, there is no diff in the long gun dept.  .50 caliber and .45 caliber bullets in similar weights seem to favor the .45 for retained energy, velocity and terminal penetration.  Only way to match a 500 grain .45 cal rifle bullet at 1400 fps with a .50 cal gun at the same velocity is to shoot a 650 or heavier bullet out of the .50 at considerable increase in recoil but not that much return in terminal performance.

Just my not so humble opinion

[quickdtoo]

:eek:  :-D  :-D  :-D

[Haywire Haywood]

The more I think about it, the more I read and the longer it takes for NEF to release them, the less I'm inclined to get a 500.  I was all excited about it but now I just dunno.  I'm not all about long range, 100-150yds is about the max I wanna shoot, but I'm already all set up for the 45/70..  Badnews Bob just picked up a Handi in 45-70 and I like it.  I've already got a BC... but it isn't a woods gun for sure.... two 45-70s in the safe?  I dunno about that one either.  
A new caliber is fun, but lots of work with loads and the chrono.  And there is the point that there isn't much to choose from component wise.  And on top of all of it, I just moved to a new place where I don't have a 100yd range 20 steps from my reloading bench.  Mebbe I'll just chop the BC down to 24" and have it recrowned.  :twisted:   NOT

Crap... I hate it when impulse buys turn into thinkers... makes my head hurt.

Ian

[bajabill]

Has there been any published reloading data for a 500sw out of a 22 in barrel?  That is what would be needed to "do the math".  Then compare muzzle energy capabilities to account for different bullet weights.  I dont think the basis of the other thread was a good comparison, using factory ammo in handguns and assuming the trends would be the same in handloads out of a rifle.

[Buckeye]

I'd say add bout 25fps. to every inch.

[bajabill]

My reason for being skeptical of using a rule of thumb for adding velocity for barrel length is that the handgun barrel length is drastically different from a rifle length.  Probably different sweet spots for powder choices.  To get the velocity from a longer barrel, one would probably need a slower powder than one would choose to get the velocity from a much shorter barrel.  12" vs 22" is not the same as using the same load development in a 22 vs 26 inch barrel.  The powder and bullet companies need to maximize or a rifle, then publish that data.

[Haywire Haywood]

From my understanding, using a slower powder is not always the answer, especially in as large a bore as we're talking about.  You have to have a powder fast enough to keep up with the very rapidly expanding space a big bore leaves as the bullet travels down the barrel.  I would think the problem would be not having the case capacity to hold enough of the faster powder to continue burning the full length of the barrel.  If you run out of powder to burn half way down the barrel, then the rest of the barrel is just drag on the bullet, actually slowing it down.

my 2c,
Ian

[gwhilikerz]

Not exactly in line with this thread but why would H&R bring out a handgun caliber that is new to the shooting world and only has maybe one model handgun for it, and at the same time discontinue mainstream handgun calibers? Most people who want a matching handgun/ rifle want something like 357 or 44 mag. I just don't understand the thinking at H&R

[Badnews Bob]

I have done alot of reading on this cause its interesting.(I have never wanted one) If you read about S&Ws requirement of Cor Bon who did the cart. development they wanted a true .50 cal to chamber in a pistol and gave Cor Bon specs they wanted to reach. They did this very well and peaked the load specs optimized for a pistol lenght barrel, there isn't any room in the case to improve it. It won't shoot much better in a longer barrell its not designed to. Several people make .45-70 pistols, they can't touch the .500 Smith, A .500 Smith in a rifle can't touch a .45-70.

Apples and oranges fellas, they both taste good but are very diffrent.

I've read the math a .500 is out of its element in a rifle barrel and they left no room for improvement.

Probably so you can't hurt yourself trying to shoot a rifle load out of a pistol.

[300winman]

When is this 500 supposed to come out??And what would the recoil be like???

[Big Blue]

The .500 S+W has two distinct advantages over the 45/70. It takes up about .4" less room per cartridge, and it can be used as a companion rifle to the S+W handgun. Other than those two, I see no advantage. My abreviated BC shoots 350gr. bullet at 2100 FPS compared to 1900 for the .500. While the 45/70 does have level 2 loads, the .500 has one level only, useable in a Handi. A waste of H+R/NEF's time and efforts. Too many other calibers out there that we'd love to see from the factory, to waste time on this.
Don

[Haywire Haywood]

Decision Made... I ordered a 45-70 Handi yesterday.  I'm taking it on a hog hunt President's Day weekend.

Ian

[quickdtoo]

Great decision, Ian, have fun and good luck on the hog hunt! I sure wish we had hogs here, but I suppose they're not exactly welcome by land owners... :cry:

[Big Blue]

Decision Made... I ordered a 45-70 Handi yesterday.
Ian

A new 45/70, Cause it's the right thing to do!  :toast:
Great choice that you won't regret. Good luck with that hog hunt, and take some pictures for us.
Don