Lawdog, I don't think we are going to convince Ramrod, or Greybeard for that matter, that the Savage is the best out of the box shooter going at present time.........I was at the range Tuesday, and the number of Savages showing up is amazing........Most of the guys at the range agree that the Savage is the best value for the money.........Most own several Savages and tell me that until the other manufactures improve the trigger and accuracy, as well as lower prices, the Savage will be the only thing they will be buying.........I told them about the post on the internet about being ugly and they don't care, because they shoot small groups.......Of course, what do we redneck, hillbilly Tennesseans know about accuracy?........ I'd bet you Alvin York would pick the Savage as well........of course he was a practical kind of guy......