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Offline JKump

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« on: January 09, 2005, 04:47:17 AM »
I will be helping out a friend with some Hogs he wants to get rid of.  I hunt with a single shot rifle.  I always carry a handgun with me.  I just need advise as to which gun to carry.  I currently own a single action .357 Mag. Western Marshall, a Taurus 617 total Ti .357 Mag. (2" barrel), 2 9mm a Glock 17 and a Browning Hi Power, and lastly (my duty weapon) a Sig 220 .45.  I can't afford to go out and buy another handgun. Which would be the best back up?
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Offline JJHACK

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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2005, 05:59:27 AM »
Bring a rifle if those are your choices. Here is one of my articles from Bear hunting Magazine.  Much of the information is relevent here as well.


I have had quite a few guys over the years ask about handgun cartridges for bear hunting. I really like hunting bears with handguns. I have likely taken more with a handgun then by any other means myself. Handguns have some limitations and some, even though referred to as handguns are more like little handheld rifles then handguns. The general term of handgun seems to stretch the definition quite a bit to include these single shot cannons!

When I think of a handgun I see a revolver or semi-auto pistol in my mind. However today the Thompson Contender and other single shot
handguns seem to have taken over as the handgun of choice for serious big game hunters. I have owned many contender barrels and several contender actions in my life so I’m quite familiar with them.

During my early years as a Professional Hunter I was using dogs to hunt lions and bears. I took out a number of guys from the mid-west and eastern states for bears during the spring Idaho hunts and the fall Washington hunts. It was not unusual to take 20 or 30 hunters out per year and shoot 30-40 bears per season. The Idaho regulation allowed 2 bears per hunter per year and the Washington regulations allowed only one fall bear per person.

We booked a hunter from Ohio early in our guiding business. He was a police officer that wanted to hunt using his on duty carry gun. In Idaho any gun .22 center-fire or larger was the minimum for big game. Washington State had muzzle energy minimum requirement at that time. We took the policeman out on the hunt with his 45 ACP shooting 250-grain soft point bullets. His first bear was treed and shot without much trouble. The bear was in the tree about 20 yards above us. We caught our breath, took a couple photos and then he prepared for the shot and fired. The impact was solid, smoke could easily be seen coming out of the hole in the bear’s chest. The bear was angry and peeling bark from the tree after being hit! He began to climb further up the tree when I yelled hit him again. I did not want the bear coming down with the dogs tied up and unable to escape from this angry wounded bear. He was about 225-240 pounds. A nice brown colored typical Idaho spring bear. At the second shot which hit nearly the same place as the first the bear really started going up the tree fast and I yelled to shoot again. I think the third shot missed but the forth hit him solid sounding like a baseball bat hitting a homerun.

The bear was barely visible up in the branches of the tall fir tree when all of a sudden we heard him crashing down and falling to the ground. When he hit the ground he was up in a flash and rolling and running down the hill. He was dead when he came to a stop on the flat, about 100 yards below us.

This experience was really educational for me. I saw this bear shot quite a few times with little effect from that 45 ACP shooting good 240 grain soft point bullets. The hunters accuracy was great, the bullets were big and heavy, and the bear was close. Why would this combination not be a much better killer? The hunter was thrilled and excited to go shoot another bear! This time he loaded his 240-grain HP’s for the hunt. We had a conversation regarding the lack of “crumple power” his gun had shown. He was surprised I felt that his gun was weak, or exhibited a lack of power. He asked what I was expecting from a handgun. I said I expect a bear shot in the center of the chest with a bullet to die in seconds, not continue to climb a tree and growl or be in a fighting mood. I also said if the bear comes out of the tree alive next time, I would also have to shoot him to protect my dogs. The hunter, although he understood the issue with the dogs, was still surprised by my opinion of his guns performance. He also respected my need to guard the dogs should a problem occur with the next bear.

The second bear was bayed and running and bayed and running all day. It’s a trait big bears have so I was quite worried about the gun he had. Eventually this bear also treed and we were able to get to the base of the tree before he jumped out again. It was a big bear of at least 300 pounds. I also carried my .44 magnum revolver this time, as backup. At the shot, which the bear took in the center of his chest all he did was growl and slap the tree with his paw. I said keep shooting until he falls, if he comes down alive I’m going to have to shoot him too.

This bear started to come down the tree. At the next shot he stopped and began to climb further up the tree but fell dead when he hit the ground in a moment or two. The Ohio policeman was thrilled again and really excited to see that his carry gun was so good at killing a big animal like this bear. Far-be it from me to ruin his feelings on the hunt or his gun, but I thought the performance was pathetic! He returned home amongst the most satisfied of all the clients I have ever had. He must have done a great sales job too, because for the next several years the majority of my hunters were mid western police officers using their carry guns for hunting. During this time I relived many of these types of multiple shot hunts at close range with various types of handguns. I suppose it’s where my opinionated feelings have come from regarding handguns for bears or other big game. I also have to laugh when I hear guys talking about “back up” guns for hikes in bear country, or while fishing in Alaska. I also see this kind of chat on the Internet hunting forums. Many of the guys who really believe their handgun is the “be all-end all” choice for protection. They would likely  be leaving the dead weight of their gun  home if they saw it’s pathetic performance on a 300 pound black bear, much less an angry 1000 pound brown bear or grizzly!

There have been a lot of handgun cartridges used over the years that I would consider worthless hunting guns for big game. The first is the 38
special. It’s lack of penetration and poor bullets are not meant for hunting. A human being is a very soft and mentally weak animal. A Human shot in the leg will go down for the count screaming for help. A deer or bear shot the same way will be a 100 yards away or more before you realize you made a bad shot. I have seen 30 pound coyotes shot with a 357 magnum run a long way before falling down. A man shot the same way would be praying for his life. There are so many drug induced mental problems with humans that those dopers who are shot might be as hard to stop as a bear or deer. The drugs would likely make them more worry free and likely to flee or fight with a serious wound. If I were a policeman watching how my carry gun performed on a bear that allowed him to climb a tree, after a perfectly centered chest shot I would certainly consider a bigger gun! It seems to me many criminals are on dope and they would be like shooting an adrenalin filled bear!

So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunting!

The next group of guns can kill bears but I would certainly not consider them hunting guns. The 357 magnum is able to kill a bear much better then the 9mm and the 38 special even though they actually shoot the same bullets. The 357 mag is much better then the 40S&W as well. The 357-magnum case is just a bigger capacity shell able to provide much better performance. If I were a cop it’s likely what I would carry based on what I saw it do to bears of all sizes. Don’t mistake me here, I don’t like it as a hunting gun for big game especially bears. The 45ACP is another gun which worked but not what I would like in a bear, or big game crumpling handgun. I think soft point bullets with maximum loads would give you a false sense of security for bear backup as well. I don’t see the hard cast bullets in 357 mag being enough better to trust 100 percent of the time. They are not what I would carry and I would never suggest anyone hunt even the smaller black bears or deer with one. The .44 special was a decent performer but again it fell short of the crumple effect I like to see in a bear hunting gun.

This next group is where I think the minimum line is drawn. The 41 magnum and the 10mm seem to have the power to really make an impression
on a bear. I have seen both these cartridges knock bears down and break leg bones. Something the others just don’t seem to be able to manage
consistently. These guns shoot over 1000 fps with bullets well into the 200-grain weight category. They seem to have nearly equal power and
accuracy as well. This is where I would suggest a minimum bear hunting handgun for close range start. They are certainly less than 50 yard guns but a great tool for bait and hound hunting. I would not suggest this cartridge as a backup or self defense against bears, only for hunting.

Finally the best group of guns. These are cartridges, which have never failed to decide matters and have the ability to crumple a bear in his tracks most of the time. The .44 magnum, the 45 long colt, and the 454. I have killed dozens of bears with the .44 magnum in my life and I don’t recall a single one running off after the first shot. I have recovered very few bullets and have broken the bones of the shoulder and legs countless times. These guns are more like rifles in performance then the typical police handguns I’ve seen so often. With a 240 grain hollow point going 1200 or more FPS the .44 magnum revolver is at the top of the heap as a commonly used hunting handgun. With Randy Garrett's hard cast ammo it will whistle though the shoulders of any bear in America. My .44 magnum was a Ruger Red hawk with a 7.5” barrel. It was an easy to shoot gun with plenty of crumple power. The same gun in 45 Long colt or 454 would be as good at getting the job done. I also have a 4” barrel Smith and Wesson Mountain gun that is as good but do to the lower Velocity of the short barrel it has a distance limitation of about 40-50 yards in my opinion. I consider these the proper size handguns for hunting the big game of the world.

The final “sub-category” are the wildcats, the contenders, and the new big bore revolvers. There is now a whole host of big bore revolvers like the 480 Ruger, the 50 caliber S&W, and the 50 Linebaugh. There is even a 45/70 revolver available now! Clearly all these are excellent bear killers if you decide to pack the additional weight and handle the massive recoil forces.

Keep these three factors in mind when deciding on a handgun for big game or bears. Make certain it has 1000 fps impact velocity, not muzzle velocity. .40 caliber or greater diameter, and finally, heavy bullets in the mid 200-grain weight range or bigger. With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet.
 
Remember also there are ways of having an effective increase in bullet diameter without changing caliber. Make sure if you use hard cast bullets you have the largest flat nose on the bullet possible also known as the “meplat”. Randy Garrett loads a bullet in his ammo which has a large flat nose which is almost bore diameter! This has an enormous effect on bullet impact over a pointed or rounded nose bullet.  Granted the over all diameter has not changed but the bullets impact diameter has improved by a whole bunch with such a big flat nose.

One other thing to consider, don’t think that just because you load a heavy hard cast bullet you have the most powerful load for your gun. This is a very common mistake. Those big heavy bullets will often whistle clean through a big bear like a field tipped arrow. The bears will die but often show little bullet impact reaction. They also tend to run off and die a great distance away. In my experience a high velocity hollow point bullet will cause a significant impact reaction and almost always allow an additional shot while the bear is stunned. The bullets about 240-260 grains in weight as fast as you can drive them will always show a greater impact effect then the heavy hard cast bullets do. They don’t penetrate as well or break big bones as well, but they don’t need to on a black bear. I have shot clean through many many black bears broadside with a 240-grain hollow point bullet at 1200-1300fps muzzle velocity. Upon impact the bears will stop and spin around biting at the wound and struggle to move away. With the many I have shot using a 300 plus grain hard cast bullets, they have launched out of sight like a rocket. Showing little if any reaction to being hit.


Don’t mistake those big heavy hard cast bullets for the most powerful ammunition your gun can use. They are when matched to the proper game, like buffalo, moose, elk, and many African species. However for the typical 250 to 500 pound soft skinned black bear they are a mistake to use.

Consider what works better on a deer shot through the lungs. A 375HH with a 300 grain solid having 4500 foot pounds of energy, or a 270 caliber rifle shooting a 130 grain soft point bullet with only 2400 foot pounds of energy?  Clearly you see the energy is far greater and the bullet weight and diameter is bigger on the 375HH. Upon impact the 300-grain solid blows a hole right through and you cannot even tell if you hit the animal. With the explosive 130-grain bullet from the .270 the deer will launch into the air with a nerve reaction and fall within a few steps. It’s the projectile that decides the result much of the time, not the perceived, or calculated power your gun has.

Don’t focus so much on muzzle energy, or the hype surrounding heavy hard cast bullets. The hard-cast bullets do have exceptional penetration, but at the cost of small diameter wounds which don’t often have the same effect as the bigger diameter hollow point wounds which have much more of a shocking or stunning effect. The benefits an explosive soft point or hollow-point will provide you with is a certain visual reaction, and significant tissue trauma. The heavy hard cast bullets are designed for exceptional penetration only. Randy is a friend of mine we have sat and talked about this paradox of bullet choice many times.  Black bears absolutely realize more trauma from higher velocity soft bullets, or hollow points. The super hard-cast heavy bullets pass through so quickly with so little transfer of bullet impact that the reaction is poor. Yes both designs will kill bears, but the faster pass through of the solids will make your effort to locate the bear much longer.  Often I have seen hunters consider their shot a miss because the bear will show no reaction at all to being hit. If this kind of bullet is chosen the best solution is to break bones and hope the fragments of projected bone will assist in the penetration of important organs like the lungs and heart. If brown bears are the main target then the heavy hard cast bullets make sense. They can be 4-6 times the weight of a black bear and you will likely be shooting for shoulder bones on these big bears. Then the big hard cast bullets are the perfect choice.

 I have not come to these conclusions by seeing one or two bears killed, but by seeing as many as several hundred killed. Anyone can see a bear shot with spectacular results once or twice and assume the cartridge bullet combination is perfect. However seeing the same combination twenty, thirty, or more times really starts to give you higher resolution repeatable results. The results that carry the most weight are the ones with the greatest resolution or highest numbers.  I have heard countless hunters claiming that their XYZ caliber and bullet is the perfect choice. When asked why they think this, the reply is that they shot a bear with it one time and it worked perfectly.  Well in my opinion one time does not make for a very scientific or credible set of facts! This works the other way as well.  Plenty of people will make or see a bad shot on game and assume they need a bigger gun. When in fact they only needed to make a better shot!

jj
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Offline mikemayberry

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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2005, 07:07:19 AM »
JJ,

Well done!

This is one of the most informative and complete reports/articles I have seen on the entire Internet on the topic of bullets, energy dissipation and real world results.

Thank you for sharing this information with us.

Mike
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Offline JKump

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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2005, 08:26:01 AM »
JJ,
Thanks for the reply. The post is very informative and I agree with mike.
I will not be hunting with this handgun.  It is kept in a backup role if the single shot rifle does not drop the hog.  Something quick if it charges after being shot or to put the wounded animal out of it's misery.
Everyone has a game plan, until they get punched in the mouth.

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Offline PeterF.

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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2005, 05:23:30 AM »
Reading JJ's article, I'd think you'd want (as a "backup") a cartridge at-least as capable of dropping your hog as your first shot.  That wounded/charging hog will be trying to put YOU out of your misery ... and they're pretty good at it.  Remember, under those circumstances, this may be literally your "last line of defense"; and you may only have time for one good shot. When it gets to that point, you want to be absolutely sure it's going to do the job.

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2005, 01:23:27 PM »
Quote from: JKump
JJ,
Thanks for the reply. The post is very informative and I agree with mike.
I will not be hunting with this handgun.  It is kept in a backup role if the single shot rifle does not drop the hog.  Something quick if it charges after being shot or to put the wounded animal out of it's misery.


A wild boar can run faster than most people think as well as turn on a dime and give you nine cents change.  Their powerful tusks are formidable weapons, that have been known to reach a length of nine inches.  I helped carry out of the hills two cut up hunters a few years back that tangled with a boar that weighted less than 200 lbs. because they used calibers not suitable for wild boar.  One hunter required over 150 stitches, the other almost a hundred on top of the broken bones and internal injuries they received.  I treat wild boar just like any other dangerous game and use an appropriate rifle/caliber for them.  If you are going to use a single shot rifle then make sure it’s big enough to do the job with one shot.  And as a back up I would rather have a good friend armed with a rifle instead of a handgun on my hip that you may never get to grab.  Lawdog
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Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2005, 01:21:14 AM »
Lawdog, it seems to me you would never carry a handgun as a back up. Yes, it is nice to have someone with a rifle to back you up, but that is not always going to happen. I always carry a back up handgun while hunting boar or bear. I use to carry my Super Redhawk 454 with a 3 inch barrel, but this year I will be carrying my 4 inch S&W 500MAG.  :D

JKump, if you are going to carry a back up handgun, make sure it is big enough to do the job quickly. :grin:
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Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2005, 04:27:49 PM »
Redhawk1,

Quote
Lawdog, it seems to me you would never carry a handgun as a back up. Yes, it is nice to have someone with a rifle to back you up, but that is not always going to happen. I always carry a back up handgun while hunting boar or bear. I use to carry my Super Redhawk 454 with a 3 inch barrel, but this year I will be carrying my 4 inch S&W 500MAG.


Your right, I don't carry a handgun as a back-up.  I carry a .357 loaded with CCI shot loads for snakes.  I NEVER hunt bears or wild boar alone.  I have killed a few bears and boar when alone but I wasn’t hunting them at the time.  I don't believe in pushing providence.  What gets me is the number of people that believe they will have enough time to spot the danger, grab for the holstered handgun and get it into action.  Just how much time do you think it will take for you to get into action?  Try it sometime, I have.  Have someone time you with a stopwatch and do it so you don’t know when it’s coming.  On an average you will have about 3 seconds to get that first shot off(and most likely your only shot).

If you read enough reports of bear(and wild boar) attacks you will find that most of the time when the bear(or boar) runs into you, you’ll loose hold of your rifle, handgun or whatever.  Lastly in my career as a peace officer I have found the most people DON’T shoot well when they have to hurry or are under stress.  I know that everyone likes to believe that because of our heritage, cowboys and gunfighters, that we are all quick draw artist.  It’s amazing how many times when someone draws their handgun quickly the first time it ends up on the ground.  I would like to know just how many shots do you believe you will get off from your new 500 S&W if you only have 3 seconds to spot the danger, draw your handgun, aim and shoot?  A handgun for back-up, no thank you.  Lawdog
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2005, 11:44:55 PM »
Lawdog,

You are probably quite right but ain't it kool to carry one strapped to the thigh? :-D  :-D

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Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2005, 02:44:01 AM »
Lawdog, what bothers me is, the guy is asking which gun would be best as a back up. On every post someone that asks the same question, you chime in and let them know no handgun is good back up because they will not have time to reach it. I say there is always a chance you will be able to get to it. We could argue this point into the ground. But it is up to the individual what makes them feel comfortable. I was told by another hunter not to bring my 454 to Alaska with us on our Caribou hunt, it would just be extra weight. Well turns out, he was the first one to pick it up and take it out with him fishing. Kind of hard to fish with that rifle strapped to your shoulder. One thing I agree with you on is, a rifle is the best choice for defense. But I just think a handgun has it's place also. I just think everyone should be able to carry whatever makes them happy and comfortable, without people making them think they just want to have a sidearm to look cool.  :D

One last thing, I pose the same question to you. How many shots can you get off with you rifle in 3 seconds draw your rifle, aim and shoot.  :D
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Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2005, 02:12:37 PM »
Redhawk1,

Quote
Lawdog, what bothers me is, the guy is asking which gun would be best as a back up. On every post someone that asks the same question, you chime in and let them know no handgun is good back up because they will not have time to reach it. I say there is always a chance you will be able to get to it.


The reason I tell them EVERY time is so they won’t put any undue faith in a handgun that, according to reports of animal attacks where the person depended on a handgun, they will not get it out in time to do any good in the majority of the attacks.  They are much better off with a rifle in their hands.  And in the few cases when they did get their handgun out they either dropped the gun or missed if they didn’t.  I personally know a game biologist that while doing some grant work for the State of Alaska that was charged by a Brown Bear.  This guy is an excellent pistol shot but he got his S&W .44 magnum out and promptly missed with all six bullets.  His partner slammed a shot from his .338 Win. that killed the bear(the only bullet that was in the bear).  The reason he had the time for six shots was the bear was coming for them was crossing a stream which slowed the bear down.

Quote
I was told by another hunter not to bring my 454 to Alaska with us on our Caribou hunt, it would just be extra weight. Well turns out, he was the first one to pick it up and take it out with him fishing. Kind of hard to fish with that rifle strapped to your shoulder.


Not really.  We go to Alaska every year, and have for the last 30+ years, to hunt/fish/visit with relatives and we have caught a number of Salmon while fishing with a rifle strapped to our backs.

Quote
I just think everyone should be able to carry whatever makes them happy and comfortable, without people making them think they just want to have a sidearm to look cool.


I agree but only after they know what the consequences can be.  It’s like I saw a guy at the range that was creeping up on the scope on his .30-06.  I told him what could happen but the final choice was up to him.  I didn’t feel the least bit sorry for the guy when he ended up going to the emergency room for six stitches to close the half moon cut over his right eye.  Everyone deserves to be warned once.

Quote
One last thing, I pose the same question to you. How many shots can you get off with you rifle in 3 seconds draw your rifle, aim and shoot.


Like I said before I carry my rifle in my hands, except when salmon fishing in Alaska but even then as soon as a bear is spotted one or more of us quit fishing and stand by with a rifle in our hands.  With a rifle in my hands I can get at least one aimed shot off that even if it doesn’t kill outright may stop the bear for a second in which time I can get off a second shot.  One last thing, every time someone ask about depending on a handgun for protection against bear or any other dangerous animal you can bet you’ll see my answer.  I believe that people need to know both sides and then they are able to make up their mind.  If this bothers you, I’m sorry but you’re just going to have to be bothered.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2005, 02:29:30 PM »
Lawdog, let's agree to disagree.  :D
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Offline S.S.

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« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2005, 06:04:12 AM »
The term BACK-UP is I think where the problem lies!
Replace it with SECOND WEAPON and it sounds a little better.
Back up seems to mean if the rifle don't stop it then
you have a Back-up with the handgun.
Well if an adequate rifle does not stop a Boar then a Handgun surely
won't. But on the other hand, if you drive several hours to your
hunting area and your Rifle Malfunctions, you don't want to go back home.
You simply pull your Second Weapon and continue your hunt.
But you want your second weapon to be adequate also!
Case in Point #1 .......
 A hunting buddy of mine stepped out of his truck, reached behind the seat and removed his rifle from the rack. Then promptly slipped in a muddy spot and fell. The muzzle end of his rifle impaled Mother Earth to a depth of about 6 inches. And of course NO CLEANING ROD! Rifle goes back into the rack, Ruger Black Hawk goes into shoulder holster and the hunting trip continues.
Case in Point # 2............
I was preparing to climb up into my tree stand (which is rare, I normally hunt from the ground) and I tied my rifle SAFELY to the end of my
cord to pull it up with. I climbed into the stand and started to pull up my rifle. About half way up the cord slipped through my fingers.
The rifle fell then did a great TARZAN impersination and swung SCOPE FIRST right into the tree. Knowing that my rifle was "Zeroed no more"
I Pulled my Blackhawk out of My shoulder Holster and continued my hunt.

Just My thoughts.....
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Offline Redhawk1

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Hog backup
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2005, 07:54:53 AM »
Let's define back up. It is a secondary weapon. I use my back up when I have my pants down and it is not piratical to have your primary weapon. When you are sleeping in your tent in bear country, my back up becomes my primary weapon. Try to maneuver a rifle in a tent and try to aim with it, if you had a bear ripping at your tent. A pistol is very easy to point and aim with in a confined area. Some people think a handgun is not practical, to them I say what ever floats your boat. I do not carry a back up weapon to replace my primary hunting tool with, but it can be used as it in an emergency. If you were knock down and your primary weapon is un accessible, then your back up is there. No one knows for sure how they will react in a situation of an attack, but it sure is nice to be prepared. (Just a small for instance), you shoot a bear and don't put it down, you go for a second or third shot and bear is not down. You are now out of ammo and bear charges you, you go to your back up weapon which in my case would be a big bore revolver. Sure the likely hood of this happening is slim but it can happen. Sometime's your friend as a back up might not be there to back you up, if he decides to run. Like I said no one really knows how they will react in that situation until they are in it. Remember or flight or fight instant kicks in. One final comment, I am glad I have the ability to make up my mind and not have to depend of someone telling me what they think is the way it has to be done.  :D
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Offline Lawdog

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Hog backup
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2005, 02:38:54 PM »
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Let's define back up. It is a secondary weapon.


Now on this point we agree completely.

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If you were knock down and your primary weapon is un accessible, then your back up is there.


In almost every instance where a bear has knocked down the person(be it a hunter or just a armed hiker) and the person moved a part of their body the bear would immediately attack the part of the body that moved.  A.K.A. the arm moving to grab the handgun.  And once a bear gets done with that arm you are not going to be grabbing much of anything.  That is why most experts tell you if attacked and knocked down to cover your head/neck area and play dead.  This they say is your best chance at surviving an attack.  This holds true for a Brown Bear, Black Bears are a different story.

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(Just a small for instance), you shoot a bear and don't put it down, you go for a second or third shot and bear is not down. You are now out of ammo and bear charges you, you go to your back up weapon which in my case would be a big bore revolver.


Bears don't charge from long range.  Most bears are shot at a distance of 100 to 150 yards unless killed over bait and then the hunter is usually in a tree stand.  So if I shoot a bear and can't put it down for keeps with the four shots(all my rifles hold four) in my rifle I am going to have time to put another four rounds in that said same rifle.  Carry a handgun if you want and it makes you feel better but a handgun is not the best weapon for protection against animals.  For two legged varmints they work great but humans die easily when compared to animals.  Lawdog
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Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline JJHACK

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Hog backup
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2005, 05:21:23 AM »
during my wildlife management and damage control employment with the Weyerhaeuser Company I was knocked down and bitten/ clawed by a black bear. I have the details in a published story I wrote after it happened. It's long and not in the proper context for wild hogs. However if you want to read it I think I have it on my hard drive and can cut and paste it into this thread? I also had a handgun with me(.44 redhawk) It may prove interesting to see a real life experience with a handgun as backup? In my conversations with several others charged and even hit by bears the stories I heard are nearly identical about the realistic function of a side arm.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Hog backup
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2005, 06:19:24 AM »
Quote from: JJHACK
during my wildlife management and damage control employment with the Weyerhaeuser Company I was knocked down and bitten/ clawed by a black bear. I have the details in a published story I wrote after it happened. It's long and not in the proper context for wild hogs. However if you want to read it I think I have it on my hard drive and can cut and paste it into this thread? I also had a handgun with me(.44 redhawk) It may prove interesting to see a real life experience with a handgun as backup? In my conversations with several others charged and even hit by bears the stories I heard are nearly identical about the realistic function of a side arm.


I would love to read it. If you do not want to post it. E-mail it to me. My e-mail is listed in my signature block. Thanks  :D
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Offline Woodbutcher

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Backup
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2005, 03:36:28 AM »
Gentlemen:
 Thank you! Wow! Very well done, and very sobering indeed! Woodbutcher