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Offline Dali Llama

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« on: January 12, 2005, 01:51:40 AM »
Mayor OKs patrol rifles
Wednesday, January 12, 2005
BARNETT WRIGHT
News staff writer

Birmingham Mayor Bernard Kincaid said Tuesday he will approve a policy allowing patrol officers to carry semi-automatic rifles in their patrol cars, but there will be stringent guidelines on when and how the additional firepower can be used.

"We haven't come to grips yet with what the level of supervision will be, how they will be issued, where they will be stored, if they are going to be city-issued, if they are going to be individually purchased," Kincaid said in an interview after his 35-minute State of the City address to the Kiwanis Club of Birmingham.

Kincaid's address came a day after state Department of Public Safety Director Mike Coppage announced troopers will have semi-automatic rifles available in their patrol cars to match the firepower of criminals.

The mayor said he met with Police Chief Annetta Nunn on Tuesday to discuss adjusting Nunn's proposed policy that arrived on his desk last week.

"The chief gave me some 6 inches of material to review on what other cities are doing," Kincaid said. "I have been going through that material, making my own notes, raising my own questions that she and I are going to have to work through. The approval of the policy is imminent; the approval of the policy with restrictions also is imminent."

The firepower issue arose in June after officers Harley Chisholm, Rob Bennett and Carlos Owen, all armed with handguns, were shot to death with a semi-automatic rifle. They were attempting to serve a warrant.

A proposed policy would allow officers to carry a Colt AR-15, a Bushmaster XM15, which is similar to the AR-15, or a Ruger Mini-14. The Colt and Bushmaster are semi-automatic civilian versions of the U.S. military's M-16. The Ruger was designed as a civilian weapon.

Standard civilian AR-15s and Bushmasters typically cost $750-$850. Mini-14s typically cost $450-$500.

Nunn said her proposed policy assures steps will be in place to protect both her officers and the public.

The proposed policy, for example, says officers must be certified to carry such a weapon by successfully completing a training program. And ammunition would be limited, she said.

"The weapons will be in an urban environment," Nunn said. "We don't want bullets that will be passing through houses and people. We're going to put a lot of onus upon our people to let them know that my reputation is on the line as well as theirs and if anybody violates the policy the entire department will suffer."

Sgt. Allen Treadaway, president of the Fraternal Order of Police, said he was encouraged by Kincaid's plan.

"We are pleased that the mayor recognizes the need for law enforcement officers to have the best equipment available," Treadaway said. "We agree certain restrictions need to be in place and officers should be proficient with the use of the weapons. We'll let the mayor and chief iron out the restrictions and go forward."
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Offline BamBams

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2005, 02:14:08 AM »
Wow....someone with good common sense!  I think the Beretta Storm in .45 ACP would be a better choice though -- since Thompson's are a little hard to come by these days.
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Offline Dali Llama

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2005, 04:00:46 AM »
Quote from: BamBams
I think the Beretta Storm in .45 ACP would be a better choice though -- since Thompson's are a little hard to come by these days.
:eek:  :eek:  :eek:
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Offline NYH1

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2005, 02:26:25 PM »
Every police officer should have a "long gun" of some sort. Hand guns are "defensive weapons"! A handgun is the "last resort". If a police officer is making a routine traffic stop or gos up to a house for something and someone threatens him/her then the officer "at least" has a handgun to try and take care of the situation! If officers are going through a building looking for a burglar then the officer"s should have a long gun........end of story!
I read a article in "Combat Handguns" written by Massad Ayoob that San Bernardino County (California) Sheriff Deputies are issued two "long guns" in addition to their Glock 9mm or 45 ACP pistols. Each are issued a 12 gauge pump shotgun (I think a Remington 870) and a Ruger Mini-14 rifle. They showed a picture of the two long guns mounted the the patrol car.
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Offline Doc TH

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Long guns
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2005, 05:42:50 PM »
As a competitive shooter for nearly 40 yrs, I have often observed many LEOs qualifying at local ranges.  Sorry to say, generally not impressive.  In the Balt-Washington area we have had a series of instances of police & miscreants firing many, many rounds with few or no hits by either side.  Recently had a U.S. Marshal in a traffic argument shoot (several times) and kill an unarmed Navy enlisted man who was at that time trying to get away from a guy with a gun who did not display official ID.  
In an urban environment, would make sense to me to require frangible bullets in "patrol rifles" except perhaps for very specially trained LEOs.  Too many marginally proficient folks putting lots of high velocity rounds out is much too dangerous in a city.
I'm not trying to put down LEOs; my father was a NYPD cop.  But simply giving officers high capacity semi-auto rifles is not a good solution to the problem.  In NYC, they went to Glocks for the "outgunned" explanation.  But last year in NY the total number of rounds fired by both sides in police-criminal shootouts was less than three.

Offline Dali Llama

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Re: Long guns
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2005, 01:10:30 AM »
Quote from: Doc TH
simply giving officers high capacity semi-auto rifles is not a good solution to the problem.  
What then be alternative solution proposed by Doc TH, ask Dali Llama? :?  :?  :?
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Offline Doc TH

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Patrol rifles
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2005, 05:01:47 PM »
In "urban" environments:
As stated: frangible bullets.
Pistol-caliber semi-auto carbines - increased accuracy without 3000 fps shots downrange.
Mandated specialized training for any LEOs authorized to carry rifles.
Use of shotguns - save for slugs, penetration is limited & bystanders safer.
Anyone want to guess how often local police have had to engage miscreants using Sa or automatic rifles?

Offline Dali Llama

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Re: Patrol rifles
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2005, 01:16:54 AM »
Quote from: Doc TH
In "urban" environments:
As stated: frangible bullets.
Pistol-caliber semi-auto carbines - increased accuracy without 3000 fps shots downrange.
Mandated specialized training for any LEOs authorized to carry rifles.
Use of shotguns - save for slugs, penetration is limited & bystanders safer.
Thank you, respond Dali Llama.
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Offline bullet maker

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2005, 01:54:41 AM »
In the above article, it stated that the officers, were killed while trying to serve a warrant. If they were that close, then a semi-auto shotgun with double 00 buck, would have served better, than a bunch of semi-auto`s that they propose. There ain`t no magic bullet for all conditiones. Once those bullets exit the rifle of those highpower semi-auto`s or full auto`s that a lot of police are trying to get, then that bullet will pass through a house, and kill some innocent person a mile away, or our kid`s riding to school in the family car.
   It smell`s to much like Waco, and Ruby Ridge about to happen all over again :twisted:

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Offline FWiedner

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2005, 04:37:31 AM »
Recently, police across the country have been issued Tasers as a option to situations requiring "less than lethal" force.  Several of these fine protectors of the peace have seen fit to use those weapons on children and senior citizens who were in no way a danger to either the officers, the public, or even to themselves, but who were simply being uncooperative or, more likely, disobedient to authority.

Giving cops more and better guns to patrol the streets with will only result in innocent people being subjected to the current Naziesque "homeland security" phenomenon, being injured or killed by some overbearing adrenaline junkie who's determined to show that he's in charge, no matter the cost to his innocent victims.

Cops are cops wherever a person goes.  The more authority and armament extended to them, the more they will use, and the less they will be held accountable for.

If the police are going to carry firearms, average citizens should be equally well supplied and armed with shotguns, carbines, rifles, sidearms, exploding rubber ducks or whatever it takes to defend themselves against those whose only motive is to have the tools with which to subjegate civilians.
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline bullet maker

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2005, 07:18:31 AM »
Very will put FWiedner
   Here in Oklahoma, the city police were issued these "Tasers", and already, there has been misuse by the police with them. Some older people are hard of hearing, and are not familiar with the commands of (get on the ground or we will blow your A-- off). so they either taser them or spray the mace in their faces. A few people have died already in Oklahoma and around the country from the cops spraying them with mace. Particulary people with asthma, as well they have had three deaths already from the cops tasering them.
   I dont like the way its headed. I was watching a report last week of Tulsa, finest in black combat fatigues, machine guns, stun guns, etc. climbing down a wall and out of helicopters, and kicking in doors, to vacate buildings, for their practice. My question is, -- Are we in a police state now, or are we heading to one? :shock: How many cops does it take to take down a drunk thats, lying in an alley past out?
   This home security thing has got me scared and confused. Our cops use to be the good guys, but their are to many rotten apples now.

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Offline Dali Llama

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2005, 07:44:36 AM »
Quote from: FWiedner
Cops are cops wherever a person goes.  The more authority and armament extended to them, the more they will use, and the less they will be held accountable for.

If the police are going to carry firearms, average citizens should be equally well supplied and armed with shotguns, carbines, rifles, sidearms, exploding rubber ducks or whatever it takes to defend themselves against those whose only motive is to have the tools with which to subjegate civilians.
:roll:  :roll:  :roll: Dali Llama suggest that subjugation of citizenry not be motive of all, or even most, law enforcement officers. :roll:
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Offline FWiedner

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2005, 08:29:36 AM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Dali Llama suggest that subjugation of citizenry not be motive of all, or even most, law enforcement officers.


I think that Amadou Diallo and Vicki Weaver would disagree with you.

If they were alive.

A bully is a bully is a bully...
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Dali Llama

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2005, 08:33:06 AM »
Quote from: FWiedner
Quote from: Dali Llama
Dali Llama suggest that subjugation of citizenry not be motive of all, or even most, law enforcement officers.


I think that Amadou Diallo and Vicki Weaver would disagree with you.

If they were alive.

A bully is a bully is a bully...
:roll: Dali Llama opine that it be somewhat of a stretch to say that all law enforcement officers be "bullies."
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Offline FWiedner

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2005, 08:57:49 AM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: FWiedner
Quote from: Dali Llama
Dali Llama suggest that subjugation of citizenry not be motive of all, or even most, law enforcement officers.


I think that Amadou Diallo and Vicki Weaver would disagree with you.

If they were alive.

A bully is a bully is a bully...
:roll: Dali Llama opine that it be somewhat of a stretch to say that all law enforcement officers be "bullies."


What does it say about a person who wants to make a career of pushing other people around and forcing others to comply in activities that would otherwise be against their own will?

To me, that says "bully".
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline BamBams

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2005, 10:07:37 AM »
Quote
What does it say about a person who wants to make a career of pushing other people around and forcing others to comply in activities that would otherwise be against their own will?

To me, that says "bully".


I totally disagree with this attitude toward law enforcement officers.  Not all LEOs enjoy forcing people to do things.  My mother was an LEO in one of the worst cities for crime, and corruption, in this country.  She was only tough when it was necessary to take control of a situation.  There are good LEOs and there are bad LEOs.  

She used to have a recurring dream quite often.  She described it thus:

"I was like an angel who had been given the power to help people.  I would fly around throughout the dream helping all kinds of people with all kinds of problems..."

She had this dream over and over for as long as I can remember.  Perhaps today, that is exactly what she is doing?  Does this sound like a bully to you?
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Offline FWiedner

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2005, 12:10:21 PM »
Quote from: TM7
Pretty wide brush stroke,,,don't you think???


Wide, fat, long, thick, and soaked full.

Sorry, my red-eyed paranoia sometimes manages to get a leg out of it's little cage every now and agin'...

Sure, give 'em bigger guns.  Why not.

Give 'em grenades and rocket launchers.

Fix 'em up in little ninja suits and let 'em wander around in sneaky little packs all night long gettin' them "bad guys".

Gotta protect the public.  Right?
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Major

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2005, 12:29:49 PM »
As one that has worked with LEO’s (I used to train K9 dogs) and knows that there are many good officers out there, I have to say that I see no need for what bullet maker was talking about.   That being; black combat fatigues, machine guns, stun guns, etc. climbing down a wall and out of helicopters, and kicking in doors, to vacate buildings, for their practice.   That is in fact, a police state tactic.   It may look cool on TV but that is where it should stay.  

Remember, in this country we are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law… not by the local constable that thinks he is the judge and jury.
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Offline Doc TH

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« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2005, 02:27:44 PM »
Dali, you are welcome.
Some correspondents are getting a little off the point, perhaps.
We would probably all agree that there are too many instances of abuse of police power, unintentional or otherwise.  The Diallo case in NY, and at the federal level, Waco and Ruby Ridge are all probably self-evident.  But I didn't think that was the topic of discussion, which as far as I can see was the use of rifles for "routine" patrol use.
Having said that, Major, FW, and Bullet maker in various ways, made a point I am essentially in agreement with: police functions are distinct from military functions.  It makes sense to employ rapid fire long arms with high-powered cartridges in a military environment.  Likewise, high-capacity semiautomatic handguns are probably wiser choices than revolvers in a military combat situation.  It's not obvious to me that these transfer across to civilian law enforcement.  In my County, there was great anguish expressed by the police dept. about being "outgunned", resulting in issuance of a series of ever-increasingly powerful high capacity sa pistols, without a shred of evidence that was a prudent policy.  Our county chief of police, who pushed those efforts, got lots of good publicity during the "Beltway snipers" episode despite the obvious fact that he was clueless, ignored citizen reports of the actual vehicle involved, spent weeks looking for a nonexistent white box truck, and "solved" the case because the perpetrators were incredibly stupid.  So, despite the fact that my Dad was a NYPD cop, and I worked for the NYPD for more than 3 years, I have no illusion about the average level of judgment or training of most LEOs.  They are not generally bad or abusive people (though some clearly have been), but they are not the SAS, Rangers, or Carlson's Raiders.  Even the FBI snipers have proven that.  I believe that LEOs should have weapons proportionate to the risk they face, which minimizes the risk to the innocent population.

Offline FWiedner

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2005, 03:12:15 PM »
Quote from: TM7
So, I reckon, from your answer PD has no, negative, zilch, nada, nien, zero, none, none whatsoever redeeming qualties???


I read stories and see shows on TV that harp on people who have been saved by the police, about people whos lives have been enriched by the police, or about someone who has in some imeasureable way benefitted from a police presence.

In my nearly 50 years on this planet I have yet to meet one of these people in person, but I can click off names of friends, family, and aquaintances numbering enough to use every finger and toe twice over, those whose lives have been made measurably worse by inviting the police and law enforcement into their lives or their homes.

Redeeming qualities?

Well,...they got pretty cars.
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Dali Llama

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2005, 04:47:45 PM »
Quote from: FWiedner
Quote from: TM7
So, I reckon, from your answer PD has no, negative, zilch, nada, nien, zero, none, none whatsoever redeeming qualties???


I read stories and see shows on TV that harp on people who have been saved by the police, about people whos lives have been enriched by the police, or about someone who has in some imeasureable way benefitted from a police presence.

In my nearly 50 years on this planet I have yet to meet one of these people in person, but I can click off names of friends, family, and aquaintances numbering enough to use every finger and toe twice over, those whose lives have been made measurably worse by inviting the police and law enforcement into their lives or their homes.

Redeeming qualities?

Well,...they got pretty cars.
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Offline brown-trout

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« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2005, 05:08:37 PM »
FIRST.....before all the cop types here jump up and down and cry fowl....if you are a cop and here at GBO, you aint a typical cop.......

In my experience , as a fire medic in a medium sized city (200,000), most cops cant hit well enough to save their lives....I have been on many shootings, havent been to one yet where the perp was killed by a cop, despite a mountain of brass next to the boys in blue.......

So Id have to say giving them centerfire rifles is a no-no.

Rifles are OFFENSIVE in nature......they should be used at the end of the shotguns range....say 50 yards.......Im not sure i want Joe Gum Shoe pointing a gun at something 51 yards away.

Personally Id givem what I hunt deer with.....a mossy 500 12 gauge with a plug in the mag tube (2+1).....if they havent solved their problem in 3 rounds, they aint gonna get it done in 15......
just my 2 cents...BT
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Offline BamBams

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2005, 05:17:22 PM »
Shotguns are classified by law enforcement agencies as alternate, offensive weapons - used primarily for house clearing, stand offs, penetrating cover (slugs), blasting tear gas, violent crowd dispersal (rubber pellets), raids, etc.  It falls far short though, when a range of over 50-100 yards is necessary to do the job.

Most patrol vehicles are already equipped with either Mossberg 590s or Remington 870s.  Back in the old days, it was the Ithaca.

This information was gleaned from "Police Shotgun Manual" by Bill Clede.
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Offline Dali Llama

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2005, 01:31:56 AM »
Quote from: BamBams
Shotguns are classified by law enforcement agencies as alternate, offensive weapons - used primarily for house clearing, stand offs, penetrating cover (slugs), blasting tear gas, violent crowd dispersal (rubber pellets), raids, etc.  It falls far short though, when a range of over 50-100 yards is necessary to do the job.

Most patrol vehicles are already equipped with either Mossberg 590s or Remington 870s.  Back in the old days, it was the Ithaca.

This information was gleaned from "Police Shotgun Manual" by Bill Clede.
Thanks for aforesaid gleaning, respond Dali Llama. :grin:
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Offline kevin.303

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Mayor OKs patrol rifles
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2005, 06:22:36 PM »
Remington has made a pump action .223 "Patrol Rifle" that accepts AR-15 mags. initially designed for law enforcement but i think they are also available to civvy shooters. it would make more sense to issue these. wouldn't feel too much different from the 870.
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