Author Topic: For deer: 7mm-08 or .25-06? (Read 1332 times)

BoneDigger · « **on:** January 18, 2005, 04:41:17 PM »

I was pretty much sure I wanted the 7-08, but then I saw that the 25-06 comes in a 26 inch barrel, which means a little more weight and possibly a little more accuracy. Ballistically they look similar to an untrained eye. Which is the better deer cartridge overall?

I saw a beautiful .243 today in stainless mounted with a stainless Bushnell scope and fell in love, but I don't trust the .243. I know a lot of people use them but I'd like something a little bigger, without having to go all the way to the .270.

Todd

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #1 on:** January 18, 2005, 05:22:59 PM »

Six of one, half a dozen of another as far as I am concerned. Go with the .25-06 if varmints are also on the menu; 7mm-08 if you might be hunting something bigger than deer.

I have the 26" barrel, and the Handi is still suprisingly handy, but I'm not getting the velocities I would expect. Suspect the long throat cancels out the extra barrel.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 18, 2005, 07:00:11 PM »

I can't say for sure "which is better"...but I can compare different book values...and the 25-06 with the right bullets will take Elk sized animals without a problem...granted not as far away as a 257 Weatherby Magnum...but from everything I've read on it and the technicians of the various bullet manufactures I've spoken with have agreed it can and...it is a great cartridge...very flat shooting...and the recoil isn't bad at all...

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #3 on:** January 18, 2005, 07:50:36 PM »

Two big White Tail does with one shot at close to 300 yards with 25-06 Ultra H&R. It was an unwanted mistake but both deer dropped dead just the same.

You supposed to make sure there is nothing you can hurt behind what you are shooting at.

That was with a 117gr hand load using the Pro Hunter bullets. The bullet penetrated one deer completly and got stuck under hide on the far side of the other. Not bad for a wee gun. My gun but I was not doing the shooting.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #4 on:** January 19, 2005, 03:00:01 AM »

If anything, the longer, more flexible barrel of the .25-06 would lessen my expectation for accuracy. For large deer out to 300 yds' I'd go with the 7mm. (If looking at Large Deer at significantly longer ranges I'd go with a .270!) A look at www.remington.com will get you to a ballistics table that will allow you to compare the cartridges. Note not only the difference in bullet drop at the longer ranges but also the difference in how much height you'll need above the line-of-sight at 100 yds'.

The .25-06 is a long-range cartridge with easier recoil; but I'd rather handload a 7mm-08 with its greater barrel life any day.

Good hunting to you,

SS'

Mac11700 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 19, 2005, 04:57:42 AM »

SS:

Quote

If anything, the longer, more flexible barrel of the .25-06 would lessen my expectation for accuracy

Have you compared the 2 barrels? I've put mine up against a standard contoured 270 barrel(don't have the 7-08 to compare)...and it's not only longer but thicker...the standard 270 barrel at the muzzel is 0.670" and the 25-06 is 0.675"....the 25-06 barrel at the 22" mark is 0.750"...so I don't think it's going to be more flexible...as to doing your comparision at Remingtons ballistic page...try to compare the same weight bullets...not a 120 grain to a 140 grain...or a premium bullet to a non-premium bullet...you might come away with a better understanding....granted the 270 does hold the advantage of using heavier bullets and this will give you an advantage ...but to do a fair comparision you need to compare like values.....and since this is a comparison of the 25-06 and the 7-08...the 270's ballistics really doesn't factor in...but I do agree...he should take a look at 1 and compare it also... :wink:

Mac

MSP Ret · « **Reply #6 on:** January 19, 2005, 06:06:07 AM »

.280 Remington in a 26'' Ultra barrel....<><.... :wink:

Terrible Tom · « **Reply #7 on:** January 19, 2005, 06:59:11 AM »

7mm-08 all the way. Not that there's anything wrong with the 25-06, but I'd prefer the .284 bullet selection over the .257 bullet selection anyday--especially if you don't handload.

BoneDigger · « **Reply #8 on:** January 19, 2005, 09:32:10 AM »

I decided to order the 7mm-08. I appreciate all of the help guys!

Todd

riddleofsteel · « **Reply #9 on:** January 19, 2005, 03:11:30 PM »

Given a similar or the same barrel blank I would expect the barrel bored .257 to be a touch stiffer than one bored .284 due to thicker barrel wall. It will also be a touch heavier for the same reason.
Of all the complaints against the 25-06 I have heard, lack of long distance accuracy is not one of them. My 26" Sendero in 25-06 has printed 1.5" groups at 400 yards under still conditions. Plus it has killed deer cleanly from 5 yards out to 385 yards with single shots every time.
While the selection of bullets in .25 is smaller than the selection in .284 check sectional densities between the two and you will see that you can shoot a lighter bullet in .25 with less recoil and still get penetration. Personally I think the .280, .270 and the 30-06 have a little too much recoil for the job they do.

Make mine a 25-06.......

MSP Ret · « **Reply #10 on:** January 19, 2005, 03:17:14 PM »

, Great choice Bonedigger!!! Get the one you want and have fun with it!! The 7mm-08 is an awesome caliber!!!!....<><.... :grin:

safetysheriff · « **Reply #11 on:** January 19, 2005, 07:57:40 PM »

Quote from: Mac11700

SS:

Quote
If anything, the longer, more flexible barrel of the .25-06 would lessen my expectation for accuracy

the standard 270 barrel at the muzzel is 0.670" and the 25-06 is 0.675"....the 25-06 barrel at the 22" mark is 0.750"...so I don't think it's going to be more flexible...as to doing your comparision at Remingtons ballistic page...try to compare the same weight bullets...not a 120 grain to a 140 grain...or a premium bullet to a non-premium bullet...you might come away with a better understanding....:wink:

Mac

Mac'

It's 1:41 a.m. here! So.....good morning!

I think the extra .005 thickness on the .25-06 barrel is a simple function of it not being turned down to quite the same dimension as the 7mm. I don't think, however, that that modest dimensional difference is enough to matter......nor is it important enough (like headspace, etc.) to be tightly controlled.

The comparison of 120 to 140 gr' bullets may or may not seem to be valid, depending upon the type of game being pursued. I would use that comparison, however, because of the sectional density factor of comparing same-weight bullets in different calibers. I'd expect a 120 gr' bullet in 7mm to be for varmints and small deer; while the 120 gr' (or there abouts) bullet in the .25 cal' would be a large deer bullet, and reasonable for most black bear as well. I would not want to tackle a large black bear with a 120 gr' bullet out of a 7mm.

My problem with some deer hunting is the lack of ethics of so many hunters today -- as you've seen me post before -- with the potential to have someone else put their tag on a deer that should be yours if it doesn't drop right away. That's my reason for mentioning the .270 caliber.

Take care.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 19, 2005, 08:40:00 PM »

SS:

That's entirely understandable about not wanting to loose a deer to a deer thief...but from my understanding...the only true advantage 1 has over the other is the heavier weight bullets...the 25 calibers have always been exceeding efficient in dropping whitetails and any other ungulate they been shot into...and from what I've read...most have been bang-flops for lack of better words right now.and out of a Handi...as to the lenght...it's the way the barrel is produced...the 25-06 is a 26" barrel...and the 7-08 is a 22"...there is just more steel in the 25-06 barrel as compared to the 22" 7-08...

Mac

James B · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2005, 01:47:30 AM »

This is a happy choice. Its like picking a ribeye or a T bone :grin: . Having been the happy owner of both of these fine calibers, you just can't go wrong with either. This said though, In the handi- department I shoot the 26 inch 280. For deer I have been shooting the 120 grain Pro-Hunter bullet at about 2800 fps. The 7mm-08 would shoot the same bullet just as well. I have a 24 inch Ruger in 25-06 and I whacked four big mulies with four shots a couple weeks ago with 100 and 115 grain Ballistic tips. The best thing about the 25-06 is that its a real thumper without the nasty recoil. I have not shot the handi in 7mm-08 but have a Savage Scout rifle in that caliber.

Fred M · « **Reply #14 on:** January 20, 2005, 03:29:11 PM »

safetysheriff.
There is nothing flexible in a 26" 25-06 Handi barrel. But if the length bothers you you a can always cut it to 24" a nice length for any single shot break open. The loss in velocity is not worth mentioning with that much power.

Just load that 25-06 up with the new Barnes TSX 100gr bullet and you will have the surprise. Nothing will walk away from it, any deer will drop in its track right now and our deer grow pretty big. No chasing it all over the country. I used these bullets in my 25-06 Ruger#1 on several deer last fall. Great caliber and bullet.

The 270 will do the same thing but not any better I don't think. Last fall I used two rifles a 25 Hunter and a 25-06. Two deer with the first one and three deer and a Antelope with the 25-06 only two took a few steps before dropping dead. The 25 Hunter is 200 ft slower than the 25-06.
When you see them perform you would never know the difference.

I don't know what it is but the 25 bore is a heck of a killer.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #15 on:** January 20, 2005, 06:00:04 PM »

Quote from: Fred M

safetysheriff.
There is nothing flexible in a 26" 25-06 Handi barrel.

Just load that 25-06 up with the new Barnes TSX 100gr bullet and you will have the surprise. Nothing will walk away from it, any deer will drop in its track right now and our deer grow pretty big.

The 270 will do the same thing but not any better I don't think. Last fall I used two rifles a 25 Hunter and a 25-06. Two deer with the first one and three deer and a Antelope with the 25-06 only two took a few steps before dropping dead. The 25 Hunter is 200 ft slower than the 25-06.
When you see them perform you would never know the difference.

I don't know what it is but the 25 bore is a heck of a killer.

Fred'

I see 'flexible' as a matter of degrees, with a longer barrel generally (note that) being more flexible than a shorter one if all else is the same. I called it 'flexible', others refer to it as being 'barrel whip'.

The .25-06 IS a long-range deer slayer -- no doubt about it.

But, I for one do not agree with buying premium bullets for deer hunting. So, I agree the .25-06 will lay them out, but so will the factory-loaded 7mm-08. And that 7mm is surprisingly efficient at holding its velocity. The Remington.com website shows how the 7mm maintains its energy, in spite of its lower initial velocity in the 140 gr' bullet. And, at the impact point -- where it matters, the 7mm has its greater frontal area and greater weight to help with penetration. (as much of a .270 fan as I am, I think that factory 7mm-08 by Rem' is actually better than its .270 load of 130 gr's! :eek: )

The one other factor, not yet mentioned, is the probability that the 7mm-08 will enjoy a significantly longer barrel life. I'd expect it to be meaningful to some who read these postings of ours.

Take care, Fred,

SS'

Fred M · « **Reply #16 on:** January 20, 2005, 09:10:00 PM »

safetysheriff.
If there ever was a cartridge that has bragging rights, it is the 7x57.
The 7mm-08 is about as identical as a pair of twins with its ancester.

I agree with all you say about the 7mm-08 mine is a doodled up imp done for hand loading it has a few feet on the standard but nothing to write home about. I have used it for many years had a proto type of this cartridge then I build a real fine rifle after with the best components.

The proto type was made with two reamers, the body with a 243AI and the .305 long neck with a a 280AI with a .311 neck diameter. Brass made from 7x57 or 06.

I made quite a few one shot kills with it in Africa it is like you say a super deer rifle and that goes for the big deer and antelope like Elk and Moose Kudu Eland Hartebeest Gamsbok and of course our big Mule Deer.

As you might know there are no more Elephants in South Africa, they were all wiped out by the South African farmers with the 7x57.

Also I have to defend the 25 bore, eversince I build the 25 Hunter I have been using it on deer and Antelope. 19 one shot kills and three misses. I am not all that keen on the 25-06 as it uses too much powder for the bore, but it does the job with a great deal of authority. That is why I made up a 257 Roberts Handi. I hope it willl shoot well.

Both the Ruger 26" and the Rem 700 25 H 24" will shoot 3 shots into one hole at 100 meters, a small hole that is. So I have to shoot down your theory on the 26" barrel for hunting that is. If you saw two groups from these two rifles and had to guess which one from which gun, you would perhaps guess wrong.

When it comes to hunting I like to use the best bullet I can find for the job at hand, the .257 100gr Barnes TSX is one of them.

James B · « **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2005, 12:03:49 AM »

Fred M. Do you think the TSX bullets copper foul less than the original X bullets. I have a devil of a time cleaning the copper out after shooting Barnes bullets. If I could get them clean, I probably would use nothing but Barnes bullets.

Fred M · « **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2005, 07:19:47 AM »

James B

Quote

Do you think the TSX bullets copper foul less than the original X bullets.

Yes I know they do, I proofed it to myself after I had a big argument with Barnes. This is the claim Barnes makes, Less fouling, higher velocities, better accuracy. I told them they were full of it. They gave me a big sample to try, at the Shot Show in Vegas.

Now that is all I use for hunting. The old Barnes-x bullets always performed well on game, but hours of removing copper from bores made me quit them long ago.

I my well worn and used 25-06 Ruger #1 these bullets produced the smallest 3 shot groups ever, non over 1/4", No more fouling than any other bullet, also I use only Moly plated bullets. 60ft more veloccity with the same load as my favorite 100gr Hornady Interlock and that is a good and accurate bullet. 3380 and 3440 for the TSX both Moly plated.

On top of that these bullets drop deer with devastating results, but so do others with that kind of velocity.

No I don't own shares in Barnes Inc.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2005, 10:47:16 AM »

Fred'

I see each rifle as a law unto itself, in some measure; and I see some generalities also that Seem to be true. That's why I'd personally prefer a somewhat shorter barrel where reasonable. Admittedly, the .25-06 is a definite candidate for a longer barrel since it is burning so much powder. Then too, the .25-06 is known for long-range accuracy as a varminter/hunting proposition. The 7mm-08 would probably match the .25 cal' in terms of hunting accuracy, however.

In the last 3 years, or so, I've actually had a huge appetite/desire for either a .25-06 or a 7mm-08......but wound up buying a .270 to take it off my friend's hands when he went to a 7mm Mag'. That, and the excellent sale prices I've seen on other calibers kept me from the .25 and 7mm cal's. Now I'm at the point where I don't want to part with the money......even though I'd still like to have a 7mm-08. I guess that in terms of practicality I can't see making any more purchases right now. Our family needs the money elsewhere........

Take care,

SS'

James B · « **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2005, 11:31:04 AM »

Fred M. Thanks a lot for that report. Do the TXS barnes come coated as well or do you do it yourself. Man the 25-06 dumps those big mulies like lightning.

Fred M · « **Reply #21 on:** January 21, 2005, 12:01:52 PM »

safetysheriff.
Your point is well taken. I am pleased that you think of your family first.
An inert pice of iron can't compete with a family.

Fred M · « **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2005, 12:46:10 PM »

James B.
Barnes does not recommend Moly plating. But then I am sceptical of any advise by manufactures. I Moly plate all my bullets, both match and hunting notwithstanding Barnes advise. Barnes have some sort of coating available on some bullets. But it is not Moly. The TSX bullets are not coated as far as I know?

Moly is a super lubricant, it prolongs barrel life and makes barrel cleaning very easy. It also reduces pressure, to make up for that you need a very slight increase in powder. A bullet traveling through a Moly bore will engrave much smoother hence produces better ballistics.

This has been confirmed by extensive tests. Norma also has done very comprehensive tests with match bullets. NECO has perfected the process and supplies all needed materials and equipment. I build my own you can find it on my web site.

There is piles of info on Moly plating bullets. Not all application produce good results, specially the quick and easy ones.

It is debatable whether a hunter shooting a couple of boxes a year would see the benefits of Moly plating.

James B · « **Reply #23 on:** January 21, 2005, 04:25:00 PM »

Thanks again. I will look into smoe of that stuff. I don't shoot the 25-06 a lot mostly just for deer season.