How accurate is accurate?

[Haywire Haywood]

I'm just getting into BP cartridge loading, will be loading 45-90 WCF for my H&R Buffalo Classic.  What kind of accuracy should I be looking for?  I've grown accustomed to tiny tiny groups from my 223 and I have read about folk in the BP world talking about being happy about getting 3MOA with their smoke poles.

What should I expect for groups starting out and what kind of groups could I expect to acheive with a little load development?  I don't want to be disappointed with groups I should be happy with.

thanks,
Ian

[Ray Newman]

YouÂ’re asking a question which is nigh onto impossible to answer as there are so many variable involved w/ loading & shooting Black Powder (BP). Loading BP cartridge is entirely different from loading White/Nitro Powder (Smokeless).

I have poor eye sight & w/ my Shiloh Sharps .45-2.4” (AKA .45-90), w/ its vernier tang sight & an aperture front sight, any group that is between 1.5-2 MOA is very good for me. I have no idea what you could expect from the H&R.

BP cartridge groups are dependent upon: your eye sight, distance, trigger set up, type of sights, bullet alloy, lube, & diameter (if shooting lead), fouling, powder granulation, primer, powder wad diameter & thickness, powder compression, weather conditions, etc.

It is a bit more involved than priming the case, measuring & dumping the powder into the case & seating the bullet.

Plus when youÂ’re done you need to deprime the cases, & wash out the BP residue from the cases & the primer pockets. If this is not done, the BP residue will eat away & the brass, weaken it & enlarge the primer pockets.

First a question you said that you are shooting a H&R ‘.45-90Â’. Are you sure it is .45-90 & not a .45-70? I have never heard that H&R chambered the Buffalo Classic in that round.--now that doesnÂ’t mean that they didnÂ’t do it.  If it is a .45-90 has it been re-barreled or re-chambered? Or what?

If the rifle was re-chambered, I urge you to make a chamber cast. Re-chambering sounds easy enough, but unless the gunsmith knows what he is doing & has the corrected sized pilot on the reamer, it is very easy to get a crooked or odd sized chamber.  IÂ’ve seen it happen  to other Shooters who had their .45-70 converted to .45-90. BrownellÂ’s sells chamber cast material:
www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=384&title=CERROSAFE%7e+CHAMBER+CASTING+ALLOY

Or a gunsmith should be able to do it.

If you are going to shoot lead bullets, I  advise you to slug the barrel to determine its size. Clean the barrel well &b take a slightly oiled lead round ball & drive it into the muzzle about 2-3”, then pound out from the breech. Measure this diameter as best you can. The take another ball & drive it in to throat, pound it out from the muzzle. Again measure this as best you can.  What you are trying to determine is determine the dia of the bore in order to fit the bullet to it. Finally take another round ball & drive it completely thru the bore. This will let you know if you have ‘tightÂ’ or ‘looseÂ’ spots in the barrel, which are detrimental to accuracy.

If you’re shooting jacketed bullets, you will not need to worry too much ‘bout their diameter, but you’ll need to find a way to control the residual BP fouling in the bore. You may wind up needing to clean the bore or the throat after each or a few shots to chamber a round or retain accuracy.

Since youÂ’re a  tyro to BP reloading, I suggest that read the following link to an on-line BPCR reloading primer. It was written by a successful BPCR Shooter:

http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/Introduction%20to%20BPCR%20Loading.pdf

One thing that IÂ’ve learned from reloading BP cartridges is that reloader: (a) must pay attention to detail ,  (b) canÂ’t rush the process; (c) must keep notes of what was loaded & how; (d) only change one component @ a time.

[Haywire Haywood]

Yes, the Buff Classic is a 45-70, I'm having Lee Shaver rechamber it for me as well as check for tight/loose spots in the bore.  He seems to be well respected for working on single shots.

thanks for the reply, I'll just do some more reading and hope for the best.

Ian

[Timberlake]

Ian,

MOA.  There is a world of difference between black powder and smokeless.  

I've several rifles for smokeless that are solid four tenths shooters and at least one that is a quarter incher.  These are all in caliber .22 and are my favorite varmint rifles.  I've also got several blackpowder rifles that I constantly strive to get into the two MOA bracket.  Two are in .45 and one is in .40.  Now, this may seem hard to understand but the two MOA with BP gives me a better feeling of accomplishment than do the smokeless rounds.  Black powder does demand more concentration and respect when loading,  and there are far more steps into making it go bang.

TL

[Ray Newman]

Smart move to send the rifle to Lee Shaver. He does very good work.
His work on my Browning BPCR triggers was excellent.

What kind of sights does it have or are you going to change them?

[Haywire Haywood]

The sights at the moment are less than adequate for long range shooting, but will have to do for the moment for monetary reasons.  They're a William's peep receiver rear and hooded front w/ inserts.  The present plan is to shoot at 100yds with these to get the hang of the BP cartridge thing.  When I think I'm ready to extend the range out, I'll switch to either a Soule type peep or a flip up buckhorn/ladder gizmo.  I'm leaning toward the ladder.

Ray, funny you should link that introduction by Chuck Raithel.  I've had that printed out since last summer... I've read it several times.  It's very informative.  I'll probably be re-reading that and referencing to it as I start loading.

thanks,
Ian

[fffffg]

this is a huge question as stated earler, ...   how long did it take you to achieve the groups that you are getting with your smokeless small bore? you dont need to answer this, but ill bet it was probably a little bit of time if you add all of it together.. well get ready to start over..............   "with a little load development" , probably about 2-3 inches..  put a year or two into it and it could be quite a bit   better..  one big difference from what your used to is long barrel time and heavier  recoil..  no more letting her slide with some talcum powder  and pinching the trigger gaurd.. try  that with 70-90 grains bp and 500 grain bullets and youll maybe need some stock work, new teeth, and some rebluing..  so its starting from scratch in some areas like holding with a firm hold exactly the same time after time, day after day, month after month.. not easy, .. but you could love it..  once youve done the little gun tiny group thing it gets a little boreing..   not with this,, it will keep you awake some  nights ,,, but  for me the chalange is what its all about.. and then good groups arnt every time out,,  it comes and goes with your concentration, and  many variables that tend to make one go insane.. but boreing, it defininitly is not..   good luck dave..

[Haywire Haywood]

One more question..  When I shoot 69gr MKs out of my 223, they need 150yds or so to stabilize, otherwise they show a very slight keyholing effect on paper as if they were wobbling in flight a tad.  

Is it the same with the the heavy 458s I plan on shooting at 100yds?

thanks
Ian

[powderburner]

That is a possibility some designs stabilize at different ranges than others  I think that a lot has to do with velocity and twist rate ie bullet rotation .In my endevors the longer nose styles show this more than do the shorter nose styles . and it mayalso be more of a nose size /bore relation problem as the designs I have tried have been off the shelf . the one true custom mould I spent money on has shown none of this problem at any range .........Dean.