Dreaded Crud Ring, 777 on Sidekick, Help!

[Rwalter63]

Hello Everyone!

I have got a question. Has anyone else out there had the dreaded crud ring effect there Huntsman or Sidekick? If so how did you solve the problem? I just purchased my gun about three weeks ago. When I first sited in my open sites I didn't have two much trouble using 777. I was fortunate in that I never shot more than four rounds between complete cleanings. At the end of each day of hunting during our shotgun hunting season I took out my Sidekick and fired 3-4 shots to adjust the open sites at different distances. I wasn't having any problem with 777 and crud. Well today I decide to add a scope to my gun and since muzzleloading season opens Wednesday I decide to go local sportmans club that I belong to site in the scope. Well after the fourth round I went to load another powerbelt and I had to really force the bullet down. After that I decide to run a spit patch down the barrel. I couldn't even pull the ramrod up. I had to remove the breach plug and push it through. I then noticed the dreaded crud ring. I then used some CVA BP cleaning solvent to clean the barrel and re-assemble the gun. I continue to shoot another three rounds and this time on the fourth round I noticed the powerbelt went down really hard. This time after firing I went right to the CVA BP cleaning solution on a patch. However my ramrod and the patch got stuck again and I had to remove the breach plug again. Anyone with suggestions on how to work around this. I continued to shoot a few more sets of three shots but I used the BP cleaning solvent between sets and it was a real pain pulling some of the patchs out. I really don't want to have to do this routine if I am out target shooting or hunting. Thanks for your advice.

[savageT]

Ya, so whats the problem???

Seriously, have you been reading any of the hundreds of posts about the crud ring problems and the fixes?  As you say, if you don't spit-patch between shots I guess you can expect to have to pull the breech plug (that's IF you can get the breech-plug out even!!!!!???
Alright, enough ridicule for one day. Sorry!

I just can't understand why people spend their hard-earned money on these 209 primer'd breech plug, crud ring producing monsters???
Let's go through the drill:
1) How much triple7 are you using....loose powder or pellets?  Over 100 grains I'll bet? (try 85-90 grain of loose powder with those powerbelts).
2) Have you considered going to the after-market 25ACP primer conversion breech-plug?  Look up <www.prbullet.com> for information.
3) Lastly, are you using borebutter in your bore?  I'd consider NOT using it as it reacts with the Triple7 and Pyrodex powders, and IF you're using too much powder......Again, IF you're using too much powder and extra hot 209 primers you'll get the crud ring!
I'd also strongly consider buying some Goex Blackpowder or the new non-Hodgden b/p substitutes.  I hear they works better w/o the crud ring??? Welcome to the fraternity of the black thumb!

Jim

[Rwalter63]

Jim, thanks for the response. I did do a search on "crud" at this site and two others and it didn't produce half the information that your one post did. I was shooting 100 grains exactly (2x50g in pellet form) using 245g and 295g powerbelts. The 245 g powerbelts were very erratic and all over the place but the 295 g powerbelts were shooting very accurate and tight with groupings around 1 1/2". Funny thing is that I was there with a friend and he had no problem shooting that same 777 load, 100 grains (2 x50 g pellets) using his Omega. He never even cleaned or swabbed his gun once during the whole time there.

As per your post I did check out www.prbullet.com and I am not sure thats an option, wouldn't you have to change the barrel on the Sidekick or Huntsman since they are notched to accept the plastic primer cap holder? Wouldn't that notch allow a "blow back" of gases on ignition? I had used bore butter but I will stop using it, except maybe when I put the gun away for a very extend time frame. The limited information that I did pull up via the search engines on the web sites did suggest switching to other powders but I would perfer to use pellets. Besides pyrodex and 777 are there any other pellet forms?  I also read that some people use ammonia free Windex, maybe I'll try that. I trouble some times getting a patch wet with enough spit.

Thanks again Jim.

If any one else has a suggestion please let me know.

[savageT]

Yes,
I have used regular Windex w/ ammonia (I like to live on the razor's hairy edge!!!).  I also tried regular, cheap, blue, auto window washer and it seems to work well too.  There are other good cleaners I've used like LeHigh Valley, Cabela's b/p cleaner, etc. God Knows every year there's a few dozen more!  Mr. prbullet....Cecil, also has his own too  along with some mightly good bulllllets.
With black powder, I'd say you're going to have to save money over those pellets and measure out the loose stuff.  Those dern pellets cost a fortune and absorb moisture and finger oils and well....you get the idea.  What you need to do is take some time, go to a sportsman club when they're having a black-powder meet and ask questions about the Holy Black and learn what the old timers use.  A few might even offer to fix you up with a pound of Goex ff if you tell 'em their little underhammer squirrel rifle is just the most purrrrrty thing you ever seen in yer whole life!  Good Luck and Don't notch that barrel!

Jim

[Double D]

I use 777 in a blackpowder cartridge gun.  I was getting the crud ring in the throat until I stopped using black powder style bullet lubes and started using standard smokelss alox bullet lube.  No more ring.

[raynor]

American Pioneer makes 100 grain sticks, I've never tried them so can't give any more info than that.

[044]

I wen`t to the site that sells the 25acp breech plugs but didn`t see anything listed for nef guns.Did I overlook something???

[Beekeeper]

Raynor, I've tried the 50 grain sticks from APP, and they ignite good. I just wonder if all the powder is being burned up in the barrel when fired? I shot them behind some buffalo bullets and powerbelts and it looked like a missle was going down range. There was a smoke trail for about thirty yards in a line behind the bullet. I quit using them after that. I still shoot the loose APP, and have thought of trying 777 powder. The only thing I do not like about APP is that it misfires more pyrodex in wet or humid conditions :? otherwise I like it. I use APP in all my black powder revolvers, and when I am not hunting it goes in my rifles. I have gone back to regular pyrodex in my hunting loads.
Zach

[jdbe]

I do not think it is made for the nef guns.  Due to our unique primer carrier designs, I do not know how we would make it work.  I love the idea though and "If I were a rich man..."  I would buy the encore and switch out the breach plug to allow for the 25 case primers - sure is a great idea and repriming the cases is a easy thing to do with for me as I have the reloading gear gathering dust.  If you dont have reloader, all you need is a case hand priming tool for like $25 bucks and buy the bulk brass and primers - gives yet another option.

[MSP Ret]

Just from expierence opn other ML's, don't use bore butter with 777, clean all the oil (petroleum products) out of and off you ML with hot soapy water, thinly wipe the bore and all surfaces, wood and meatal with a non petroleum product like "1000 and 1" all natural lube made by Ox Yoke Originals in Milo Maine. They make all of this for the different companies, TC included. Thisa does away wioth all crud rings and black residue formed when the BP or subsitute ignites and combines with the petroleum products, or, use bear fat!!!....<><.... :-D

[Rwalter63]

A couple of weeks ago I went out and purchased some Americain Pioneer Sticks. I going to give them a try as soon as the weather breaks here in upstate NY. Its been to cold to go to the outdoor range to shoot. I'll also try a different lube.Thanks everyone and if anyone else can think of anything else let me know.

[TOGO]

Try this, buy yourself a separate ramrod and jag for range use and cleaning, the provided rod isn't designed to handle extra work. Part of my routine at the range is a spit patch between each shot, no crud ring and more consistent shots. Make sure you use a good anti-seize lube on the breach plug threads, copper anti-seize by permatex works well for me. Happy shooting.

[jdbe]

I just put 20 sst and 20 xpt through the sidekick and had no problems providing:  I used a patch on jag with a little solvent ( the kind designed to take black powder and plastic) and ran that down the bore each time.  If I would run a second patch dry, then the stp were a little hard to load, but with just the one lightly moistened patch on the jag with the solvent (not spit) they loaded as easily as the sst's did.