I had my eyes opened.

[wareagleguy]

I was talking to a co-worker that is a Federal Police Officer.  We were discussing carry guns and he told me that in a face to face stand off he could stand 25 feet from me.  While I was armed and had a gun in a holster and he being UNARMED he could take me out.

I told him he was nuts and that no way could he run 25 feet across the room (25 feet) and get me before I could draw my gun and shoot him.

We ended up making a beat (buying lunch).  He gave me a toy gun and holster and he walked off 25 feet.  We turned and faced each other.  He was allowed to make the first move and I was to draw and fire before he got to me.  I was NEVER able to get the gun and  fire before he was able to get to me.  He said if he had a knife I would be dead and I believe it now.  I'll be buying lunch!!!

He and I both that Self defense (with a gun) is a right of everyone but don't think for one second that it can keep even a unarmed person from killing you.  Be careful!!!

[rockbilly]

I had been aware of this for a number of years.  I never worked as a LE officer, but have many close friends who do.  This is one of the reasons most officers are allowed to unholster the sidearn when approaching a situtation that may turn deadly.  I had training in the military for hand-to-hand combat and for handling prisoners where we were taught to unholster and have the sidearm ready when in a threating situtation.  Even if the individual has a knife, he can take you out before you can un-holster. If there are two-three individuals, most likely you will be dead with the gun still in the holster, pocket or wherever you carry.  

Even the macho guys with the "cannon" tucked away on their person are at risk if someone rushes them.  Normally the larger the sidearm, the more time it takes to get it out.  Even a few seconds can mean your life.

[jhm]

thats why its best not to advertise to anybody that you are armed as you would be the first to be rushed in a situation,     JIM

[Mikey]

brdavis:  there is a legal defense used in justifyable homicide shootings where a man with a gun shoots a man with a knife who is closing a distance of 10 yds (30 feet).  It takes approximately 1.5 seconds for the man with the knife to close the distance of 30 feet and strike twice, fatally.  It takes a trained handgunner 1.5 seconds to draw and fire 2 shots, hopefully into the target.

I have used this as a training technique more than once and it is amazing how horribly surprised people become when they realize something like that could happen that fast and happen to them.

It is quite true and it works.  You don't have to be a knife handling expert or have experience in close quarters combat with a knife or bayonet to take out a man with a gun, especially if it's holstered or concealed.  

When asked how I would handle the situation I simply say that if I even think I'm liable to be looking at trouble (and I am a very cautious type) of if I think I'm liable to be in a situation where I might be accosted jumped, I take the piece out of my belt and put it in my pocket where I can have my hand on it.  That technique works the same as it does when a Police Officer is trained to unholster his/her sidearm when approaching a situation.

A man with a knife can cross a distance of 30 feet in 1.5 seconds but that won't beat a man/woman with a gun already in hand.  Try that technique sometime and you will see the difference and understand how you should carry your sidearm and under what conditions you should carry and not 'have in hand'.

Just Mikey here.

[DEPUTY]

aka the tuller drill !  by dennise tuller!  or the 30 ft rule!

[rockbilly]

I have been aware of this for a long time.  I have never worked as a cop, but have several freinds and relatives who are.  Most say they approach a possible deadly situtation with their weapon drawn, and in some cases cocked and ready.  I had some training in service on hand to hand combat and handling prisoners.  We were advised that most people can cover the 25 feet in 3 seconds, it normally take 5-6 seconds to draw and fire.  Some more food for thought; For those that carry the "big" guns.  It takes longer to get them into a firing position than it does a smaller gun.  In other words, the average individual can draw and fire a model 60 much faster than they can a model 29.  For this reason I keep mine small.  I'm convinced it not the size of the dog in the fight, but how fast and how many times the dog can bite.  All of us may be in "bad stuff" if we are facing two-three bad guys at 25 feet or less.  Best thing to do would be,  just go ahead and shoot your self before you get hurt........Just my thoughts.

[Ken in SENM]

Fellers,  there is one more verse to this discussion. Even if you have your firearm in hand, unless you are ready and willing to pull the trigger the INSTANT that predator who is 30 feet away moves toward you, he will likely still get you. If he has a knife, he may die from the round you may get off, but he will die after he sticks you with the knife!!. Reaction time is an interesting thing, but I can assure you, IF you hesitate, you are lost!! Don't even think you have a "shot" if your weapon is holstered or in your pocket. If danger is that emminent, it needs to be in your hand.

It is a hard thing to say or think, but you must be certain and settled in your mind that you will use your firearm. If you allow the preadator to make you talk, and if he starts moving while you are actually talking, you are beat, even with your firearm out and pointed at him. Again, you may get a round off, but he will be at you by that time, or very nearly so!  If you are talking, it will take about 3/4ths of a second (at best) for your brain to change gears from talking to acting. If he can move 30 feet in 1.5 seconds, he is now at 15 feet. If it takes another quarter or half second for the hammer to fall, where is he now??  And what if it took you an additional half second to change gears??

This is an interesting proposition, but if you want to prove it, get a rubber knife and a rubber gun and try it, over and over. It works,even if you know what is happening. Just remember that any time you are giving instructions to the predator or housebreaker who is threatening you, your trigger finger is idling in neutral while your gums are clattering! Keep your commands short and sweet. Let your firearm do as much talking as it will, both before firing and after. Let the sucker wonder what you are gonna do.

If you are truly made up in your mind, and if you are confident that you are justified and righteous in your use of deadly force, and if your equipment is in hand and functional, all you really need to do is look the predator in the eye and smile!!

[Mikey]

Ken:  I just hope I never have to go there again, but I surely won't forget the lessons past learned.  Thanks for the reminder.  Mikey.

[Ken in SENM]

Yessir, Mikey. It is a place where I hope none of us has to go ever, again or for the first time. The very best advice of all is to make every effort to be really aware and avoid potential situations and circumstances where such contact is likely. However, a person can't stay in a bubble all the time either, so we must be prepared and ready. The time to do this is before the bell rings. We sure need to keep our head out of dark places where you can't see or hear much. My dad used to tell me that everybody gets his head up there once in a while, but some folks have their head up there and locked!! Not a good way to be! Be aware, and go careful!! :wink:

[Mikey]

Airborne Ken, Airborne.  Mikey.

[Rocky]

:shock: If you just stand there gawking like a deer caught in the headlights, they'll get you every time. If you move (take defensive action), say for instance, backwards and away, you'll most likely come out on top. For proper defensive/pistol training check with  :agree: Gunsite (Arizona Pistol Institute),  :agree: Thunder Ranch, and/or  :agree: Crucible Security Services.  Unlike so many out there, all three are top-notch, first-rate training centers based in real world applications.

Live life in Yellow, not White.
DVC

[Frog123]

Pretty impressive demonstration aint' it. First time I saw it was actually in a court room. A volunteer was given a toy training gun in a duty rig and placed in front of the witness bench and was instructed to draw and simulate the shot by saying "bang, bang" when the threat had escalated to justify deadly force. The "attacker" was on the other side of the court room armed with a toy halloween knife, the kind that holds stage blood and releases it on contact. Those of you who have seen this know the outcome. The "atacker" was able to close the 25'  distance and strike the "officer" multiple times about the head, neck and chest with the knife before the gun could be cleared from the duty holster and target aqquisition made. The end demontsration was quite graffic and appeared very brutal, but this was exactly what the jury needed to see to understand the threat that was made to the Officer at the time. Stay safe out there.


Frog

[Grumpy]

:shock: The drill I went through was at a target range with the instructor putting his hand on my shoulder. When he removed his hand I was to draw my handgun and shoot twice at a target. The instructor ran directly away from me to demonstrate how much ground an assailant could cover in the time it took to fire two shots. 37 feet was the least distance and we knew we were going to shoot. The decision was already made for us. Scarey!!

[Matt in AK]

If you can find the video called "Surviving Edged Weapons" -- buy it.  It shows graphically that most need at least 27ft separation in order to get a holstered (police rig) gun onto the bad guy before you're cut...and remember a shot bad guy ain't a dead bad guy right away...

[Hud]

In two different altercations, I was forced to disarm a armed attacker. One had a drawn gun, the other a knife in hand. After each incedent I was shocked at how easily I had disarmed them, basicly because they hesitated. I'm not saying what I did was wise or tacticly correct, but was it was my only option at the time. Anyway my point is, as others here have stated, you can't hesitate when the time comes to actually use a weapon.

Hud

[Rhett]

This would also be the reason to give torso shots,(it depends on the caliber and power to get a person to drop though).   A screwed up lung or liver can still get the host a good distance of running space.  I recall a case where one "suspect" got shot in the heart by a 9 mm hollowpoint and it exploded but the "suspect" had enough time,(oxygen in his blood stream) to run a hundred or so yards.  To quote the Adams Family: "The human spirit is a hard thing to kill....even with a chainsaw."  

[myronman3]

Rocky gets it.   there is no shame in keeping a defensive space between yourself and a potential threat.   i dont think there is a question about the distance one can cover.   keep in mind that your feet aint in cement and if you need to move it would be advisable to do so.