What is bolt forging?

[kombi1976]

I've read in a couple of places that in order to properly build a custom rifle from a Mauser 98 action that you need to get the bolt forged.
What does this mean exactly?
Does it refer to having a straight bolt handle turned down?
If not what does the process entail and why do you need to do it?

[Judson]

If you want to mount a scope properly on a 98 Mauser you have to alter the bolt for clearance of the scope.    There are two ways to do this, the first is to cut off the original bolt handle and weld on a new one.    There are some problems with this method first of which is that it is hard to match the steel in the bolt since you do not know in many cases it's composition.    If you blue the welded bolt handle on it may not show up right away but sometimes years later you end up with a difference in the coloration of the blueing at the weld.     Also if your welder is not up to snuff he may get a weak weld or one with pits.    Other then good welding, one way around these problems is to use forging blocks, lots of heat stop past on the cocking cam and other areas of the bolt you do not want hot and forge the bolt down into a "sporter" shape.     I have had very good results using this process but unlike many others while I am cooking the original bolt handle I also stretch it a bit.    One of the complaints of a forged bolt is that it is short and this takes care of that.   I also re shape the bolt knob as the round military know is out of place on a nice rifle.    This 7X57 has a forged bolt that was stretched to give you an idea.[/img]

[gunnut69]

JUDSON pretty much covered the subject.  I differ however on the subject of forging.  It is a bit less expensive perhaps but I feel a welded on handle adds a lot to the style of the weapon.  The military handle can be stretched and reshaped but I've not had a problem matching steel and, so, find the ease of welding on a bolt handle more to my liking.  I also avoid a lot of heating time for the cocking cam and bolt body.  There are also some thingss such as hollow bolt knobs that are difficult when reusing the military handle.

[kombi1976]

So I am correct is saying that forging is bolt turning.
I bought a sporterised 1941 98k Mauser just after Christmas and intend, slowly, to build up a sporter from it.
Here's a pic of the rifle and bolt.

As you can see it has a standard bent bolt handle and only a little pitting under it from moisture over the years.
Will I have to modify it or will it work fine?

[earschplitinloudenboomer]

kombie1976;
"Turning" is commonly referred to as..."engine turning"...a process of using an abrasive to put the little circular swirls on the bolt body. This is purely cosmetic. Forging means using a set of heavy "forging" blocks to guide the bolt handle to a position (while heating) where it will clear a scope mounted on the rifle. You will probably also need to replace the safety as it will not clear a low mounted scope. You may opt for a trigger which incorporates a new safety. Bolt shrouds with 3 position safeties are available but pretty cost prohibitive. You have a nice looking rifle, take your time, do some reading and research and have fun with your project.

[kombi1976]

Mmmm, I'm still a little confused.
Does even a standard bent 98 bolt handle need forging in order for it to clear a scope mount?
As far as the safety, I'm not concerned about having to use mid or even high mount rings as my other rifle, a SMLE sporter, has reasonably a high mounted scope and I'm quite comfortable with that.

[gunnut69]

Firstly engine turning or damascening is brushing the little swirls into the surface of the steel on a bolt.  It is pretty but is really done to improve the ability of oil to stay on the surface and prevent rust.  It uses abrasives to do this but I prefer the cratex rods(rubber) with the abrasive powder to create the swirls.   Mauser military bolt handles all have to be lowered to clear a scope.  The straight handles are a bit shorter than the bent ones but all have to be lengthened for best use.  As I said I much prefer welding a new handle in place while JUDSON prefers forging using the afforementioned cast forging blocks and a torch to heat and bend the handle down.  He also lengthens and alters the bolt knob shape for a more pleasing contour.  The only way a military safety can be used is with see thru rings and even then it'll have to be shortened a bit.  Much better to install one of the replacements readily available from commercial suppliers.  Then mount the scope low on the receiver where it belongs.  The shooters face can then readily weld to the stock when sighting the rifle.  Makes for an easier rifle to shoot quickly and well.  These safeties are a direct replacement, quite easy to install and very reasonably priced..

[earschplitinloudenboomer]

Mark II type safeties require a notch be cut into the bolt shroud, that thing is so hard a cat can't scratch it. Dremel with grinding wheels does a nice job.

[kombi1976]

The only way a military safety can be used is with see thru rings and even then it'll have to be shortened a bit.  Much better to install one of the replacements readily available from commercial suppliers.  Then mount the scope low on the receiver where it belongs.  The shooters face can then readily weld to the stock when sighting the rifle.  Makes for an easier rifle to shoot quickly and well.  These safeties are a direct replacement, quite easy to install and very reasonably priced..

O.k., so the bolt handle itself has nothing to do with low mounting a scope on a military Mauser, right?
It's actually the safety.
To be honest I never use the safeties on my other rifles, prefering either to have an empty chamber or for the rifle to remain uncocked until I intend to fire it.
With this in mind, will I be able to put mounts & a scope on the rifle until such time as I'm about to afford getting an after-market safety fitted(with the full knowledge the scope will block use of the safety)?
BTW, exactly how hard are these to fit?
I looked in a magazine and most listed were 2 position.......is there a reason for this?

[Racepres]

Another country heard from.... I would not worry too much abt the safety .. The bolt (even on your "turned down" example) will need to be mod'ed if you want a decently low scope mount (med height rings)  Set a scope held by hand over the action and work the bolt and you will see the problem... (actually I always thought that a bolt like yours, turned over would work). For the safety the 2 position is popular cause they are easy to make, cause they never go over abt 10:00. To use all three positions requires a low lever indeed if mounted on the shroud. Me, heck I worked it over so it worked fairly easy and then cut a safety lever off abt half height!!! Lost alot of leverage but it sort of works. I'm working on a better design of my own. Not in a hurry tho cause the stock safety can be applied even tho it "hits" the scope, or like I said I can build up some finger muscle to operate the short one!!!

[gunnut69]

To mount a scope(conventional method) requires the receiver be drilled and tapped, the bolt handle bent to clear the eyepiece and the safety modified.  The first 2 I consider gunsmith jobs as specific knowledge and skill is required.  The safety is is easy to install.  The Dayton-Traister MkII requires a retention knotch be cut in the bolt shroud.  The other alternative is the Buehler style safety.  Its a 2 piece model and requires no changes to the shroud other than a bit of fitting, usually to the safety itself..  Anyone with a tiny bit of patience can install either by just following the instructions.  It's a bit more expensive but I much prefer the Buehler as I've seen the shroud crack allowing the Dayton-Traister unit to be unrestrained..  A little note- The shroud on mauser actions is as hard as hard as woodpecker lips.. but may be drawn and the hardness restored after a machining process is completed.  It is nearly impossible to install the side swing M70 style safety levers unless this is done.. Also the Brownells catalog #57 has the D-T safety for less than $20 while the Buehler style made by Timney sells for a bit less than $40.  Around here drilling and tapping a mauser runs around $10 to $15 per hole..  bending a bolt is about $40 to $75..  but prices are highly regionalized..

[earschplitinloudenboomer]

To mount a scope, in line with the bore, on the reciever of the pictured Mauser, the bolt handle MUST be replaced or altered (forged). The safety MUST be replaced or altered (altering original safety is not recommended as it leaves very little clearance for a low mounted scope, and even less clearance for your thumb when trying to utilize it!), and the reciever MUST be drilled and tapped to accept a scope base which will position the scope over the line of bore.
 The answer to your question about the two position safety is this: Your Mauser now has a three position. The center position (perpendicular to the line of bore when rifle is held upright) allows easy removal of the firing pin, spring and striker assembly. These three positions of the original safety require a 180 degree sweep of the safety lever. A replacment safety has the notch to prevent forward movement of the striker repositioned so that only about 60 degrees of sweep is needed to operate the safety, but you will have only two positions...SAFE and FIRE.
  There is, available, a mount for a long eye relief (pistol) scope, which mounts the scope ahead of the reciever on the barrel. No alteration to the bolt or safety is required with with this mounting system although I find it very unsatisfactory.
  My advice is to keep doing what you are doing...research your project before you cut, drill, bend or alter ANYTHING. It may help to try to envision the finished project as you would like it. You may want to think ahead to stock alteration or replacement, mounting a sling, recoil pad or removal of the original sights...is the barrel good or need replacing?
  If no definate completion date is necessary, take the time, enjoy your project.

[kombi1976]

Thanks for the help, guys.
After your advice and comments and making a few comments to some local gunsmiths and retailers I've decided what my next step will be; specifically to look out for a good deal on mounts, rings and a scope at a big gunshow I'll be visiting in about 10 days time.  :grin:
It turns out that bolt forging and dilling-&-tapping cost about $40 and $50 respectively and the real cost of having done by a specific smith(who does do good work) is that, although the products he stocks are high quality, he tends to have higher prices on parts like rings or mounts.
I'll put off having the work done until closer to the date when I'm due to hunt deer as the local range(due to political jockeying I won't go into) has been closed to rifles firing rounds over 1500fps.  :evil:
Meanwhile, I am taking my time and after I get the scope mounted will be thinking my next step through carefully.
It will probably be having a Timney trigger and safety fitted.
I actually don't use the safety on any of my rifles.......it's not trustworthy, or should I say I'm not trustworthy using it, if you understand what I mean.
Eventually the barrel will need replacement, not because it's particularly bad....actually the rifling is quite sharp and shiney.....but because a good after-market barrel will make for a more accurate rifle and because there is some pitting on the outside of the military barrel.
I know it's aesthetic, but in the long run I want a nice looking rifle. :wink:
I also won't be changing the stock until I change barrels because the millitary barrel has a large diameter further forward than a sporting one would and this affects the way the barrel channel is cut and the way the rifle is bedded.
In addition there's some scratches to be cleaned up and polished off and a general rebluing of the action that's pointless to do with the current barrel.
But, once again, thanks.  

[gunnut69]

Sounds like a plan to me..  Good luck and keep us up to date..