Ember causing a charge to go off, real or not?

[His lordship.]

I bought a new percussion Lyman plains pistol, the instruction manual said to leave the hammer down on the spent cap to prevent air circulation should there be a glowing ember (sparks left from preceding shot) while pouring down a new batch of powder and loading the gun.  I used to have a Kentucky pistol years ago that I shot alot, and I used to immediately pull the hammer back to start the loading procedure before putting any powder down the bore.  By the way, the Lyman pistol is very accurate and the .50 caliber holes are easy to see on the paper.

I have been tempted to get a flintlock to be different, but on those the flash hole is open all the time allowing air to circulate in the gun, seems to me if this was such a safety risk I would have heard more about that, especially with the military muskets where speed in loading was required to win a battle.

I also have used cap and ball revolvers extensively and have never had a charge going off with the ram loader in the pressed position pushing down the ball, I wonder what would happen in that case?  And on those the cap has almost always fallen away while re cocking the revolver which, according to Lyman, would allow air to circulate.

If there was a detonation with the ram rod being pushed down, would that constitute a barrel obstruction, or would the whole thing going flying out?  I am thinking of using a T-handle to allow my fingers to at least be on the side, not directly over the barrel, but that cold be tricky when the barrel starts to fowl and it gets harder to get that ball down into position.

Is ember caused detonation really rare, or is it just precautionary talk? 

Thanks. 

[flintlock]

In theory, anything is possible...I've shot flintlocks since 1975 and never seen it, nor heard of it...Of course, a tree could fall on you next time you go hunting as well...

[Flint]

It was more common, whenever it occurred, in the military use of paper cartidges.  It is the reason you always make sure the ramrod is not pointed at your head when loading.

Note that ML cannons are swabbed out with water between shots.

[bedbugbilly]

If you have never seen a "cook off" - then I hope you never do.  I have seen it happen once while shooting NSSA - Civil War Muskets - there seems to be a misconception of the use of paper cartridges in muskets.  Yes - early smoothbores, the tail was torn off and the powder dumped down followed by paper and ball.  If you look at drill manuals, for flintlocks, the pan was primed from the cartridge first, the frizzen closed, and then the barrel loaded.  One post referenced artillery - what you are talking about is why the vent is ALWAYS "thumbed - i.e., the vent is covered tightly with the number 1 man's thumb covered by a "thumbstall".  If you have ev er done this position on a full size cannon, you know how hot the gasses are being pushed up against the leather of the thumbstall as the bore is sponged between rounds.  It is also thumbed during the loading.  Think of the bore as being the same as a "tobacco smoking pipe".  As your mouth draws on the stem, air is drawn into the bowl causing the tobacco to burn from the already present hot ember of the lighted tobacco.  The same can happen in a muzzleloading firearm - flint or percussion.  In theory, if a very minute ember were present in the breech - hot fouling as an example - and it is not hot enough to ignite the powder that has been poured in - as you push a tightly patched ball down the bore you are pushing gas (air) down the bore and compressing it - it leaves through the vent or nipple and that action could cause the ember to get hotter and ignite the powder.  As the air is being pushed down, the it is being pushed through the granules of powder, possibly over a cool ember that with the introduction of air causes it to get hotter.  I've shot BP for over 45 years - military muskets, fowlers, flint and percussion.  The only time I've seen it is as I said, in a military musket and the reason that it happened was probably due to the rapid rate of fire during a timed event.  A rifled musket with a mine ball can be loaded and fired 3 times a minute.  Your typical round ball - flint or percussion - is not going to be fired that rapidly.  Everybody does it differently for round ball.  When I'm shooting, I always spit patch the bore between shots - first to remove some of the fouling and second to take care of any hot spots.  If a percussion or flint rifle is not vented correctly - i.e. the drum or the vent is placed too far forward of the end of the breech plug, fouling can build up on the face of the breech plug and possibly cause an ember problem.  Going back to muzzle loading artillery, premature ignigion was a real problem when the artillery was loaded quickly during battle without sponging between shots.  You NEVER wrap your hand around a cannon rammer for that reason.  There were a lot of "one armed" artillerymen as a result. 

[His lordship.]

Bedbugbilly...thanks for the helpful information, despite my interest in military history and muzzle loaders I have never shot a Napoleon style cannon before, only stood next to them, they are clearly a different animal. 

I used to have a military book on random historical events that I got as a gift, and there was a story of a British artillery man who lost both his arms at Waterloo.  It has been along time since I read this chapter, but apparently somebody screwed up and the cannon fired while he was still holding the cannon ram rod (plunger) taking both of his arms off.  As he laid there bleeding to death, Wellington rode up to talk to him, it was a grisly story and this is part of the reason I got out of muzzle loaders for many years. 

[Gatofeo]

In cap and ball revolvers, with bare powder (no paper), I continue to use my brass flask.
However, in the rare instances when I use paper cartridges, I don't immediately use the flask. Instead, I use a dipper, filled from the flask.
Too often I've seen the remnants of paper in the revolver's chambers, when I use paper cartridges. Though it's not smoldering, it gives me the willies to see it.
And yes, I nitrate my paper with potassium nitrate (saltpetre). Nonetheless, there are still times when paper fragments are left.
As for your question with rifles. I'd have the willies loading a rifle from a flask. A revolver chamber is a very short length, compared to the barrel of a rifle. To me, that greater length means greater odds of having a spark in there somewhere.
I'm no statistician, but my furry-brained feline head (a note of explanation: Gatofeo means, "ugly cat" in Spanish) warns me that the odds of an event happening within an area increase as that area is also increased. Myself, I avoid a flask with rifles.

[coyotejoe]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that more Civil War artillerymen were killed by their own guns than by enemy fire, though I have to wonder if any such statistical analysis was ever done. Sounds more like someones wild speculation but for sure cannon were dangerous, mostly due to the rush to fire as many rounds as possible. I load at a leisurely pace and never worry about "lingering sparks", by the time I get around to dumping a fresh charge it would have to me a very exceptional spark, more like a candle.

[His lordship.]

I have since done some further research and have come up with 2 techniques that are new.  One is to blow down the barrel to burnout any glowing ember, but this might be frowned upon at many gun ranges, the other is to swab the bore between shots.  I found with my Lyman pistol that I had to swab the bore after 3-4 shots as it was fowling so bad that it became a wrestling match to seat the ball. 

I also feel that time can help, the simple method of loading one of these guns takes so much time that the ember would blow out on its own.  In the early days with my Kentucky pistol I would wait a few seconds before even trying to load it, this was a challenge as I wanted to shoot more quickly being young and impatient.

I found a newspaper article in Louisiana from another muzzleloader website where a guy claims to have fired a cap in his inline muzzle loader to get it ready, then was loading it when it went off and put the ram rod through his wrist.  He says he waited 2 minutes before trying to load it, which I find hard to believe.  The instructions did not have enough warnings, so he claims, and he was sueing the maker of the gun for neglegence and injury.   

There was a television show on PBS called Battlefield Britain that I have seen.  The chapter on the Battle of Culloden was how the British general, the Duke of Cumbria had his infantry learn to load and fire their brown bess muskets 3 times in one minute, and at least on the televison show, to use, paper cartridges with these old flint locks.  They did not mention any problems other than one could see how smokey and sparky the brown bess is.

[briarpatch]

According to these accidents, embers must cause a problem if not careful.


http://www.artilleryreserve.org/accident.pdf

[mechanic]

I always do two things.  1.)  I cock the hammer and blow down the barrel.  2.) With  the barrel pointed up and away from my face, I place the powder charge in my palm and pour it down the barrel.  I don't really  remember why I started doing it this way, but it's become habit.  I figure if the powder flashes, it will only burn my palm, not my face.  If the powder does not ignite, it's hard for me to figure that it would not stifle any ember left before loading the ball.  In any event, never place the bore towards your person.  Anything can, will, and does happen.

[squirrellluck]

I believe there was a "cook off" on a history channel show with gunny. A man was demonstrating the # of shot that could be fired in a minute.

[coyotejoe]

I didn't see that but speed shooting with paper cartridges is where it would happen, both because of the speed and because of remnants of the paper.

[Fingers McGee]

Have had it happen to me with a 32 inch barreled .50 cal percussion rifle and a single shot pistol.  Have also seen it happen with a flint musket.  For whatever reason, there was somethig hot enough in the barrel to cause the pwder being poured in to flash back out of the barrel.  I have always used a powder measure of some sort - usually a drilled out antler tip - when loading single shots.  Blowing down the barel is effective but highly dangerous if you're not sure your round went off.  IINM, it is an illegal practice in all NSSA, NRA, and NMLRA matches.

Revolvers are a different situation.  Have always used a flask to charge chambers on a C&B revolver.

FM

[gcrank1]

I believe the real value of a puff down the barrel is to ensure the flash channel is clear, thus will ignite the next shot. If you can readily see the smoke curl out it is likely to work. In most, if not all well and properly run ranges and organized shoots, it is forbidden. Why, well, stupid people. I once saw a guy completely load his rifle, cap it, then put his mouth over the end and blow! No kidding! Not a clue......
As I said, it can serve a useful purpose and some chaps keep a short length of rubber tubing handy to stick in the bore and puff without their face over the bore.

[flintlock]

The shot will clear the flash channel...I didn't want to bring up the blowing down the barrel because it always raises a controversy...The easiest, safest thing to do is simply run a damp patch down the barrel between shots...The older I get, the slower I am to reload anyway...

[Elijah Gunn]

I "kiss the muzzle" on my single shot pistols. Keeps the fouling soft, and takes care of any embers. Wouldn't do it at a range, or if there were a lot of distractions going on. Usually by myself when shooting them, so if I get a hangfire and don't catch it...well what's life without at least a little risk now and then.

[His lordship.]

I used to be really into center fire rifles and the barrels would heat up quickly on those critters.  The gun range that I used to shoot at was private and I was routinely alone, then I used to put my mouth on the muzzle and blow down the bore to cool them off faster.  Never would do that if people were around.

It could be a challenge as the barrel was hot and I did not want to burn my lips, but it worked well in faster cool down.  I will have to look into getting a rubber tube to blow down the barrel.

[OLDPUPPYMAX]

I've taken to running a patch down the barrel of both my flint pistol and Great Plains C&B rifle after each shot. A little Hoppes 9 and then a dry patch after half a dozen shots. I believe embers could well be a problem for shooters who use BP pellets. I can see how these might not burn completely as something like a 3f granulation would.

[gcrank1]

FWIW, Ive been shooting the 'old' guns since the early '70s when I got an Italian Colt's clone 1851 Navy. Since then it has been the gammut, perc & flinters, rifles and smoothbores, cheap and expensive, plinkin' and competition. No idea how many shoots, or how many rounds fired be me or those around me.
I've never seen it happen. Not that it couldnt, it sounds so logical. Are there really any documented cases or is this in the 'it sounds so logical it just has to be true' stuff of urban legend. If so, Ive yet to see it.
The stuff I've seen during 'rapid fire' events, pole shoots, etc. makes me not want to be around them. No ember caused discharges, but lots of sloppy gun handling for no good reason. Leave me out, thats when accidents will happen.

[OLDPUPPYMAX]

Maybe it's just me, but I can't understand anyone wanting to "rapid load and fire" a muzzle loader. I understand there are competitions for this sort of thing and any number who want to get off a certain number of shots in one minute, or whatever. BP shooting, for me at any rate, is for enjoyment. I have a great deal more fun with a C&B revolver or flintlock than with any Glock or S&W. If I only get off 15 shots in an hour, that's fine with me. I'll enjoy each one.