Author Topic: Repro trapdoor strength  (Read 980 times)

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Offline Haywire Haywood

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Repro trapdoor strength
« on: January 21, 2005, 09:25:31 AM »
I have a question regarding the repro trapdoors.
 
Are they any stronger than the originals?

Is the restriction to Level 1 loads because of a weaker design or the weaker steels of the originals?

Ian
Kids that Hunt, Fish and Trap
Dont Steal, Deal, and Murder


usually...

Offline Ray Newman

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Repro trapdoor strength
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2005, 10:34:13 AM »
Probably, the best way to answer your questions about the steel & strength would be to contact the manufacturers/importers.

Get the answers straight from the horse’s mouth as to speak….

IIRC, a problem that I have seen & heard comments ‘bout the original  Trapdoor pertains to the locking cam latch. If worn too much,the breech block would not lock up tight. All of the set crews on the breech block must be tightened down to hold the parts in place& have the parts function properly.

As the original field manual suggested: (a) after closing, push down on the breech block w/ the thumb to make sure it is fully closed; (b) the firing pin is “free floating”, keep it clean from any debris that could keep it from retracting.

If the firing pin protrudes during closing, it could very well fire the round in the chamber before the breech is locked in battery. This is not unique to the Trapdoor as many of the Trapdoor-era had free floating firing pins.
Grand PooBah
WA ST F. E. S.

Offline Ray Newman

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Repro trapdoor strength
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2005, 10:57:34 AM »
See the below link for an interesting & informative Trapdoor site:

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/
Grand PooBah
WA ST F. E. S.

Offline Timberlake

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Repro trapdoor strength
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2005, 12:48:34 PM »
Mr Haywire,

Please do not try to make the Trapdoor do anything it was not designed to do.  Yes, the reproduction TD's are probably stronger but stronger than what?  It is not an inherently strong action as compared to a Model 700 Remington.  Just where in that wide chasm does it fall?  You don't want to discover that and I don't want to read about it.

From an engineering point of view, that old rifle is a wonder.  It's a wonder that cam worked all (most) the time.  It's a wonder why the yielding breech worked in concert with the cam all the time.  It's a wonder why the floating firing pin floated as much as it did.  It's a wonder why more people ain't dead just from firing the absolutley beautiful rifle!

I love mine and do nothing to hurt it.  Strictly BP loads and cast bullets.  Have some respect, man.

TL
Noble by birth yet nobler by deeds...
America's Veterans!

Offline Ray Newman

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Repro trapdoor strength
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2005, 01:46:23 PM »
Timberlake makes a very good point about BP & cast bullets in the Trapdoor, but esp. cast bullets.

The barrels in those old Warhorses are relatively soft. I once saw a pristine Cadet Rifle ruined because the owner shot it a great deal w/ White Powder &  Full Metal Patched (AKA Jacketed) bullets. The throat was gone & the rifling was so worn down bullets would drop down the barrel w almost no resistance. Even an oversized cast bullet wouldn‘t shoot….
Grand PooBah
WA ST F. E. S.

Offline Haywire Haywood

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Repro trapdoor strength
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2005, 02:04:52 PM »
I'm not trying to make a trapdoor do anything at all... don't own one.  I was just wondering about it's weaknesses.

Ian
Kids that Hunt, Fish and Trap
Dont Steal, Deal, and Murder


usually...

Offline Timberlake

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Repro trapdoor strength
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2005, 02:10:38 PM »
Haywire,

Well, now you know!

TL
Noble by birth yet nobler by deeds...
America's Veterans!

Offline quickdtoo

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Repro trapdoor strength
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2005, 03:19:18 PM »
Ian,

You may find this article of interest..

http://www.quarterbore.com/library/articles/5070.html

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Pogue

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Repro trapdoor strength
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2005, 11:20:13 AM »
My H&R says it's safe to use with smokeless ammo.  That said, I have ONLY used smokeless ammo that says SAFE FOR ALL FIREARMS.  As I'm sure you've seen in your reloading manuals, there are 3 tables for 45-70 smokeless: 1) safe for all rifle (including trapdoors), 2) mid-range (for pretty much anything made after the trapdoor), and 3) high-power (for only very robust actions like a Ruger #1).

Be safe, only use that which says SAFE FOR ALL FIREARMS.  The 300gr Remington JHP I've tried was pretty accurate.

Offline dlemaster

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Repro trapdoor strength
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2005, 03:02:46 AM »
If you are going to shoot commercial loads just make sure the box is marked 45/70 Government or "safe for all firearms"(as pointed out earlier). There are commercial loads available for the stronger actions like the Browning 1885 or Ruger #1 that are way too strong for the trapdoor action, but I believe that they are only marked .45/70 leaving off the word government.
Hope this helps.

Regards, Dave
"I love a good gun for it makes a man feel independent, and prepared for either war or peace".
David Crockett  1834

Offline Lead pot

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Repro trapdoor strength
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2005, 03:55:20 AM »
Tim that is a good story. But I don't know about that 2 grain dacron wad holding the powder down.

Kurt
Dont go were the path leads,go were there is no path and leave a trail.

Offline Gatofeo

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Repro trapdoor strength
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2005, 03:54:57 AM »
I own and shoot a reproduction 1873 Trapdoor Springfield, which I purchased new in 1977. It was made by Harrington & Richardson and is the Little Bighorn Commemorative carbine.
It is the cavalry carbine with short barrel (I think it's 22 inches but it may be 20. I'm at work and can't check).
Anyway, I've been reloading for it since 1977. When I first purchased it, I asked this very question of Harrington & Richardson.
I was told that whilie the steel is of better quality than the originals, the design itself is the limiting factor. For all practical purposes, it is no stronger than an original in the same condition.
I was warned against using any loads that exceeeded those recommended for the original 1873 Springfield and I've done that for more than 25 years.
So, no, it is no stronger than an original 1873 Springfield in excellent condition. And many Trapdoors are not in the greatest condition, so I would not exceeed the recommended starting load with smokeless powder.
Interestingly, the late gun writer Elmer Keith wrote numerous times that the Trapdoor Springfield should NOT be used with smokeless powder. He believed its action was too weak. I don't agree with him on this and believe that, if the rifle is in good condition and safe, it may be used with low-pressure smokeless loads.
A word of warning: There are some cartridges that attract ignorant maniacs, the .45-70 is one of them. I've found loads on the internet, listed for the Trapdoor Springfield, that are clearly too much for it!
Your best source for good, safe loads remains the reloading manuals. I suggest Lyman No. 48 reloading manual as it has a section on loads for the weak actions, such as the Trapdoor.
Also, Handloader's Digest No. 7, dating from the 1970s, has an excellent two-part article on reloading for the .45-70 with lead and jacketed bullets, in various action strengths. That article was originally published in Handloader magazine, I understand. It remains one of the best articles of its kind, despite being 30 years old.
The reproduction 1873 Springfield is a hoot to shoot. With a little practice, you can get four to six shots a minute off that would make life difficult for any aggressor out to 200 yards or so.
Some people still chastize the Army for adopting it over the Sharps but the Trapdoor --- when used with black powder loads --- had it all over the Sharps as a combat arm. For one thing, it threw the empty case clear of the breech, whereas with the Sharps you had to pull the extracted case out.
I've read quite a bit about the Trapdoor over the past 30 years or so and decided that a good one was marvelously accurate, and marksmanship records bear this out. However, it was often hindered by subquality ammunition and standards of manufacturing.
I recall reading one gun writer state that he has made it a practice for some years now to measure the bore of every 1873 Springfield he could. He's found them with dimensions ranging from .452 to .462 inch. With such a variation, accuracy suffered no doubt.
But the soldier who had a good one, and knew how to shoot, and had good, fresh ammunition, could hit man-sized targets out to 600 yards or so.
One of my old American Rifleman magazines from the 1930s has an interview with such an old soldier, who was on his Army post's shooting team. When it traveled back East to compete, once a year, the soldiers chipped in and bought their own, fresh, commercially made ammunition rather than use the older Army ammo that had been stored  for years --- often in questionable circumstances.
He said that Army ammo, by the time it reached Western outposts and forts, had bullet lubricant that was typically dried out. This lack of lubrication cause terrible leading and accuracy was usually so-so to atrocious.
But if fresh ammo was used, with a lubricant soft enough to keep the black powder fouling powder soft --- and if you had a rifle that had a good bore --- it was an accurate rifle. He and his teammates won many matches in their region and back east, solely by using fresh ammunition.
My reproduction Trapdoor is well made, has a nice .458 inch bore and is accurate with black and smokeless powder.
It's a fun gun. It may not be as accurate as the highly refined Sharps reproductions of today on the target ranges of today with their extremely long ranges.
If you want a fun, unusual .45-70 it will surely draw a crowd at the range. Everyone seems fascinated by its action and history.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."